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Post by ProVeritas on Sept 5, 2024 20:14:07 GMT
Well, every Labour Government since Blair has espoused neo-liberal capitalism. Do you consider Blair and Starmer's government "right wing"? Every Government currently in power in Europe also espouse neo-liberal capitalism. DO you consider all of them to be "right-wing"? All The Best I repeat “So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?” I think I answered that. Do you need me to help explain how? All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Sept 5, 2024 20:16:53 GMT
I repeat “So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?” I think I answered that. Do you need me to help explain how? All The Best You answered it with this “ Or we can look at the one thing nearly ALL parties in Europe, whether they are right or left wing, adhere to - neo-liberal capitalism.” I just wanted to check whether you realised it .
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Post by ProVeritas on Sept 5, 2024 20:26:32 GMT
I think I answered that. Do you need me to help explain how? All The Best You answered it with this “ Or we can look at the one thing nearly ALL parties in Europe, whether they are right or left wing, adhere to - neo-liberal capitalism.” I just wanted to check whether you realised it . I am well aware of both what I type and the implications of such. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Sept 5, 2024 20:28:01 GMT
You answered it with this “ Or we can look at the one thing nearly ALL parties in Europe, whether they are right or left wing, adhere to - neo-liberal capitalism.” I just wanted to check whether you realised it . I am well aware of both what I type and the implications of such. All The Best So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?”
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Post by ProVeritas on Sept 5, 2024 20:31:31 GMT
I am well aware of both what I type and the implications of such. All The Best So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?” Didn't I just answer that... ...twice? All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Sept 5, 2024 20:49:32 GMT
So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?” Didn't I just answer that... ...twice? All The Best You did but I’m not sure that you realised it . Your coyness in choosing either yes or no indicates that you don’t .
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 5, 2024 21:02:59 GMT
LOL - you do come out with some nonsense. Every right-wing party in Europe wants to reduce immigration... If they all want it how come they have all been so bad at achieving it?
I mean they are either all utterly incompetent, or they don't really want it. And given nearly all of them espouse Neo-Liberal Capitalism guess what... ...they DON'T want it. All The Best How many right-wing parties have formed a government in Europe?
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 5, 2024 21:12:53 GMT
Once again you are insisting that right wing equals YOUR definition ( Right-libertarianism) and no one else’s . Most right wing parties see mass immigration as toxic ..and for good reason . But you know better. I mean I showed an impartial plotting of differing parties political stances, and you rejected it because the conclusion about what makes something "right wing" doesn't meet YOUR definition of "right wing". What makes that website 'impartial'? - is there some official regulatory system?
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Post by Bentley on Sept 5, 2024 21:51:00 GMT
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Post by ProVeritas on Sept 5, 2024 22:47:28 GMT
Didn't I just answer that... ...twice? All The Best You did but I’m not sure that you realised it . Your coyness in choosing either yes or no indicates that you don’t . I am not sure why I have to keep repeating myself. I've had to repeat one of my recent statement twice, and now I have to repeat another one. I said: You seem to lack the ability to engage in joined up thinking. It seems you can only hold one point of debate in mind at a time. So let me spell out what it is I have said. 1) Neither Left-Wing or Right-Wing governments have successfully managed to control immigration. 2) That means that a) either every government, Left or Right wing, all across Europe for a half-century is wholly incompetent, or b) neither the Left-Wing nor the Right-Wing want to do anything about immigration. 3) One of them is several orders of magnitude more likely than the other. From which I have posited the following point 4) That current immigration levels, not only in the UK but across all of Europe, have nothing at all to with the political leaning of the incumbent government of the time. Ergo we need to look for a common factor that prevails across multiple countries, and is not determined by the political leaning of the party in power. Luckily, there is one. The prevailing economic model of all Western economies: Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Now, if you can find one other factor that applies to every Western Government of the last half-century, and benefits from a constant surplus supply of unskilled and semi-skilled labour, then I am all ears. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Sept 5, 2024 22:57:57 GMT
You did but I’m not sure that you realised it . Your coyness in choosing either yes or no indicates that you don’t . I am not sure why I have to keep repeating myself. I've had to repeat one of my recent statement twice, and now I have to repeat another one. I said: You seem to lack the ability to engage in joined up thinking. It seems you can only hold one point of debate in mind at a time. So let me spell out what it is I have said. 1) Neither Left-Wing or Right-Wing governments have successfully managed to control immigration. 2) That means that a) either every government, Left or Right wing, all across Europe for a half-century is wholly incompetent, or b) neither the Left-Wing nor the Right-Wing want to do anything about immigration. 3) One of them is several orders of magnitude more likely than the other. From which I have posited the following point 4) That current immigration levels, not only in the UK but across all of Europe, have nothing at all to with the political leaning of the incumbent government of the time. Ergo we need to look for a common factor that prevails across multiple countries, and is not determined by the political leaning of the party in power. Luckily, there is one. The prevailing economic model of all Western economies: Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Now, if you can find one other factor that applies to every Western Government of the last half-century, and benefits from a constant surplus supply of unskilled and semi-skilled labour, then I am all ears. All The Best Oh my goodness . All that waffle when your post “ Or we can look at the one thing nearly ALL parties in Europe, whether they are right or left wing, adhere to - neo-liberal capitalism.”“ answered my question “ So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?”“ with a resounding …” Yes”. Note …I didn’t bother to read the waffle .
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Post by ProVeritas on Sept 6, 2024 1:56:05 GMT
I am not sure why I have to keep repeating myself. I've had to repeat one of my recent statement twice, and now I have to repeat another one. I said: You seem to lack the ability to engage in joined up thinking. It seems you can only hold one point of debate in mind at a time. So let me spell out what it is I have said. 1) Neither Left-Wing or Right-Wing governments have successfully managed to control immigration. 2) That means that a) either every government, Left or Right wing, all across Europe for a half-century is wholly incompetent, or b) neither the Left-Wing nor the Right-Wing want to do anything about immigration. 3) One of them is several orders of magnitude more likely than the other. From which I have posited the following point 4) That current immigration levels, not only in the UK but across all of Europe, have nothing at all to with the political leaning of the incumbent government of the time. Ergo we need to look for a common factor that prevails across multiple countries, and is not determined by the political leaning of the party in power. Luckily, there is one. The prevailing economic model of all Western economies: Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Now, if you can find one other factor that applies to every Western Government of the last half-century, and benefits from a constant surplus supply of unskilled and semi-skilled labour, then I am all ears. All The Best Oh my goodness . All that waffle when your post “ Or we can look at the one thing nearly ALL parties in Europe, whether they are right or left wing, adhere to - neo-liberal capitalism.”“ answered my question “ So neo liberal capitalism is not an indication of a right wing party , right ?”“ with a resounding …” Yes”. Note … I didn’t bother to read the waffle . Probably best, given the previous two sentences you clearly would not have understood it. Of course adhering to NLC does not make automatically make a part "right wing". The shocking thing is that you seem shocked by that. But Like I said, it is clear you can only hold one point of debate in your head at a time, and are not capable of joined-up-thinking. Which is why you so clearly misunderstand, and then misrepresent my posts. Have you managed to worked out why both Left and Right parties adhering to NLC undermines you fucking idiotic argument that right wing parties want to control immigration? I don't think you have, that would require a basic level of joined-up-thinking, and you clearly lack the intellect for that. All The Best
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Post by buccaneer on Sept 6, 2024 7:15:39 GMT
Hmm.. So record levels of immigration are right wing, record levels of public spending are right wing, record levels of taxation are right wing, record levels of surveillance are right wing, record levels of regulation are right wing, record levels of Diversity, Equality and Inclusion are right wing, ..is there anything that to you is not right-wing? As I have repeatedly pointed out, but you seem to have some cognitive dissonance about, Immigration is neither Left-Wing nor Right-Wing; because it is NOT political. It is economic - neo-liberal capitalist economic; and funny enough both the Left and the Right of British Politics have continually adhered to neo-liberal capitalist economics for the last half century. Public Spending and Taxation clearly go hand-in-hand; so it is no surprise to anyone even remotely economically literate that both are high at the same time. Of course there are Non-Political (as in not based on UK political policy) reasons for some of this, the Pandemic for one, the conflict in Ukraine for another. Surveillance is very much a right-wing authoritarian thing. High Regulation, I have long argued that we need simplification of regulation - especially tax regulation, most of which exists to give the wealthy and big business a way to not pay the tax they should be paying. Of course, if everyone was paying they tax they should be paying then overall percentages of taxation could be lower. Because the really rich pay a lesser percentage, the middle and lower classes have to pay a higher Percentage. If you want to blame anyone for your higher taxes look at the rich, not the government. Only a Alt-Right Extremist would think that more diversity, equality and inclusion was a bad thing. Are you sure that is the message you want to be sending about yourself. All The Best So these people are neo-liberal capitalists? There is an overwhelming undercurrent of Left wing thought that drives immigration in this country. No ifs or buts. These left-wing idiots enable immigration, even if it stems from neo-capitalism policy. It is certainly a Left wing undercurrent and a fantastic excuse for so-called 'economic' reasons.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 6, 2024 8:10:01 GMT
You did but I’m not sure that you realised it . Your coyness in choosing either yes or no indicates that you don’t . I am not sure why I have to keep repeating myself. I've had to repeat one of my recent statement twice, and now I have to repeat another one. I said: You seem to lack the ability to engage in joined up thinking. It seems you can only hold one point of debate in mind at a time. So let me spell out what it is I have said. 1) Neither Left-Wing or Right-Wing governments have successfully managed to control immigration. 2) That means that a) either every government, Left or Right wing, all across Europe for a half-century is wholly incompetent, or b) neither the Left-Wing nor the Right-Wing want to do anything about immigration. 3) One of them is several orders of magnitude more likely than the other. From which I have posited the following point 4) That current immigration levels, not only in the UK but across all of Europe, have nothing at all to with the political leaning of the incumbent government of the time. Ergo we need to look for a common factor that prevails across multiple countries, and is not determined by the political leaning of the party in power. Luckily, there is one. The prevailing economic model of all Western economies: Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Now, if you can find one other factor that applies to every Western Government of the last half-century, and benefits from a constant surplus supply of unskilled and semi-skilled labour, then I am all ears. All The Best 1) Agreed 2) Agreed 3)Possibly 4)Not so. It is always a political decision and parties have arisen that specifically demand strictly controlled immigration and are shuffled out of the way by one means or another with the connivance of the existing more powerful political parties and the MSN. The EU has been instrumental in this process through its rapid expansion into poorer countries and its policy of freedom of movement with its obvious sudden march of poorer people westwards and the obvious cultural and societal upheaval that resulted. The model is a political model as it requires politics to keep it in place and its proponents fight the political groups that threaten that model through every trick in the book.
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Post by Dan Dare on Sept 6, 2024 8:29:21 GMT
PV seems to be discounting the obvious. Left- and right-wing governments - insofar as such terminology makes any sense in western liberal democracies - are enthusiastic about mass immigration but for quite different reasons.
As he notes, for 'right wingers' immigration is part of the central credo of economic libertarianism; freedom of movement for labour is a fundamental part of their guiding principles and just as important as freedom of movement for products, services and capital.
For 'left-wingers' it is a matter of social libertarianism, an expression of the universalist egalitarianism that underlies their central worldview.
They both want the same thing for very different reasons.
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