|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 11:52:09 GMT
Okay, we've already established that you favour protectionism. Nope. We’ve already established that you falsely claimed that . A new discovery is that you repeat the false accusation anyway . So, you're not protectionist?
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 12:25:01 GMT
Nope. We’ve already established that you falsely claimed that . A new discovery is that you repeat the false accusation anyway . So, you're not protectionist? Depends on how you define it and how extreme you have to be to qualify. Do I want the UK to be “ Singapore on Thames “? Not really . Do I want the UK to be a part of a declining quasi political trading bloc ? Not if the result is uncontrolled immigration . Maybe if I were a middle class leftie who has saved money from hiring an immigrant or a cynical employer who could exploit their youth, desperation and ignorance then I might think otherwise . All free nations tend to have some kind system in place to protect its interests.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 12:28:24 GMT
So, you're not protectionist? Depends on how you define it and how extreme you have to be to qualify. Do I want the UK to be “ Singapore on Thames “? Not really . Do I want the UK to be a part of a declining quasi political trading bloc ? Not if the result is uncontrolled immigration . Maybe if I were a middle class leftie who has saved money from hiring an immigrant or a cynical employer who could exploit their youth, desperation and ignorance then I might think otherwise . All free nations tend to have some kind system in place to protect its interests. Okay, so you're Schrodinger's protectionist. Figures.
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 12:33:02 GMT
Depends on how you define it and how extreme you have to be to qualify. Do I want the UK to be “ Singapore on Thames “? Not really . Do I want the UK to be a part of a declining quasi political trading bloc ? Not if the result is uncontrolled immigration . Maybe if I were a middle class leftie who has saved money from hiring an immigrant or a cynical employer who could exploit their youth, desperation and ignorance then I might think otherwise . All free nations tend to have some kind system in place to protect its interests. Okay, so you're Schrodinger's protectionist. Figures. I’m not simple enough to think that the problem or the solution is simple , darling .
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 12:41:36 GMT
Okay, so you're Schrodinger's protectionist. Figures. I’m not simple enough to think that the problem or the solution is simple , darling . You're right. People like me lack the subtlety of mind to understand that self-contradictory people like you are just complex.
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 12:46:45 GMT
I’m not simple enough to think that the problem or the solution is simple , darling . You're right. People like me lack the subtlety of mind to understand that self-contradictory people like you are just complex. Nope. You are just being lazy. You use false accusations and over simplification to score non points . You still accuse me of self contradiction, even though you cannot find a quote ( or a series of quotes ) to support your false claim , Darling .So I will add dishonest too.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 12:51:33 GMT
You're right. People like me lack the subtlety of mind to understand that self-contradictory people like you are just complex. Nope. You are just being lazy. You use false accusations and over simplification to score non points . You still accuse me of self contradiction, even though you cannot find a quote ( or a series of quotes ) to support your false claim , Darling .So I will add dishonest too. Okay, you've convinced me. You do and do not support protectionism, but you're not self-contradictory. My earlier claims to the contrary were unjust.
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 12:56:52 GMT
Nope. You are just being lazy. You use false accusations and over simplification to score non points . You still accuse me of self contradiction, even though you cannot find a quote ( or a series of quotes ) to support your false claim , Darling .So I will add dishonest too. Okay, you've convinced me. You do and do not support protectionism, but you're not self-contradictory. My earlier claims to the contrary were unjust. Where have I said that I support or do not support protectionism? Define protectionism and how far into that spectrum should I be to be defined as protectionist?
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 13:18:24 GMT
Okay, you've convinced me. You do and do not support protectionism, but you're not self-contradictory. My earlier claims to the contrary were unjust. Where have I said that I support or do not support protectionism? Define protectionism and how far into that spectrum should I be to be defined as protectionist? A person is a protectionist if he supports protections against the importation of cheap goods or labour, to keep prices and wages at a higher level than they would otherwise be. I have wronged you if you support the importation of cheap labour and goods and have never complained that FOM lowers wages. I only hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 17:08:32 GMT
No need to thank me -- I just wanted to clarify the inconsistencies in your previous post. But you're welcome! Next time, hopefully, your bases will be more factual than anecdotal. There is are inconsistencies . Your false claim that if I do not post incidents of non itinerant, young , non European agency workers working outside of safety rules and long hours , it creates inconsistencies only illustrates that the point made has gone over your head . I won’t thank you for your own inadequacy. Here's what you've claimed so far: 1. "As for hardworking …the East Europeans that come over here were mainly young , itinerant people with nothing to lose." 2. "They worked seven days a week, 12 hours a day for weeks at a time." 3. "They were no more hard working than their UK co workers." The first carries the suggestion that you don't believe they were hardworking. Fine, but the second tells us that you admit they were hardworking. And the third confirms that they were hard working but no more than their UK co workers. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Eastern Europeans and their UK co workers were both hard working. You gave us your anecdotal evidence that Eastern Europeans worked extreme, back breaking work schedule. I asked you to give similar evidence in relation to their Brit counterparts. You couldn't. You still can't. Yet you don't want to be called inconsistent. And you seem to be miffed and antsy with me. Why?
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 18:07:14 GMT
There is are inconsistencies . Your false claim that if I do not post incidents of non itinerant, young , non European agency workers working outside of safety rules and long hours , it creates inconsistencies only illustrates that the point made has gone over your head . I won’t thank you for your own inadequacy. Here's what you've claimed so far: 1. "As for hardworking …the East Europeans that come over here were mainly young , itinerant people with nothing to lose." 2. "They worked seven days a week, 12 hours a day for weeks at a time." 3. "They were no more hard working than their UK co workers." The first carries the suggestion that you don't believe they were hardworking. Fine, but the second tells us that you admit they were hardworking. And the third confirms that they were hard working but no more than their UK co workers. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Eastern Europeans and their UK co workers were both hard working. You gave us your anecdotal evidence that Eastern Europeans worked extreme, back breaking work schedule. I asked you to give similar evidence in relation to their Brit counterparts. You couldn't. You still can't. Yet you don't want to be called inconsistent. And you seem to be miffed and antsy with me. Why? The first carries no suggestion that they were not hard working . You made that up . The second tells you the hours that many worked .It itself doesn’t indicate their work rate The third indicates that they were no more hard working than their UK co workers . Working 12 hours a day , 7 days a week and ignoring safe working practice dies not indicate hard workers . It indicates workers being exploited by people like you . Do you think that nurses are not hard working because they do not work 12 hours a day / 7 days a week? How about police. Ambulance , Lorry drivers etc etc ? I’m not miffed at all . I think it’s you That's miffed because the point seems to be beyond you 😁
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2022 18:07:19 GMT
What I said was that importing workers from abroad has consequences to the whole community in terms of times of a glut of tradesmen and the costs of that period of glut will fall upon everyone not just those who have benefited from short term lower prices. That is where the morality lies we all potentially pay a cost for the cheaper prices for some. The rest is another subject which would miss the point. Anyone may or may not need a tradesman and that is a cost to consider in the grand scheme of things. Individual responsibility means that is what one has to do. Costs such as? It just sounds to me like you would rather keep prices high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Costs such as tax credits, unemployment benefits. Prices being high is a consequence of insufficient numbers in the field, prices being low are a consequence of too many. On balance I prefer the former as it is cheaper for the country in the long term, avoids immigration, avoids pressures on local communities in terms of cultural changes and social cohesion. So in reality the person who need teh tradesman pays the cost of that tradesman. As long as I have been alive prior to the EU there has always been ups and downs in tradesmen numbers.
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 18:14:41 GMT
Where have I said that I support or do not support protectionism? Define protectionism and how far into that spectrum should I be to be defined as protectionist? A person is a protectionist if he supports protections against the importation of cheap goods or labour, to keep prices and wages at a higher level than they would otherwise be. I have wronged you if you support the importation of cheap labour and goods and have never complained that FOM lowers wages. I only hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. Your definition suggests anything other than a totally unregulated economy is guilty of protectionism. If that’s the case then I don’t see your point , Darling. Where exactly have I been self contradictory? I have pointed out how, in my experience, wages were stagnated and working conditions were made poorer by an uncontrolled influx of migrants . You seem to want to ignore that point made and concentrate on a non point about whether I am a “protectionist”. You are a Tory and I claim my brown envelope .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 18:43:02 GMT
Here's what you've claimed so far: 1. "As for hardworking …the East Europeans that come over here were mainly young , itinerant people with nothing to lose." 2. "They worked seven days a week, 12 hours a day for weeks at a time." 3. "They were no more hard working than their UK co workers." The first carries the suggestion that you don't believe they were hardworking. Fine, but the second tells us that you admit they were hardworking. And the third confirms that they were hard working but no more than their UK co workers. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Eastern Europeans and their UK co workers were both hard working. You gave us your anecdotal evidence that Eastern Europeans worked extreme, back breaking work schedule. I asked you to give similar evidence in relation to their Brit counterparts. You couldn't. You still can't. Yet you don't want to be called inconsistent. And you seem to be miffed and antsy with me. Why? The first carries no suggestion that they were not hard working . You made that up . The second tells you the hours that many worked .It itself doesn’t indicate their work rate The third indicates that they were no more hard working than their UK co workers . Working 12 hours a day , 7 days a week and ignoring safe working practice dies not indicate hard workers . It indicates workers being exploited by people like you . Do you think that nurses are not hard working because they do not work 12 hours a day / 7 days a week? How about police. Ambulance , Lorry drivers etc etc ? I’m not miffed at all . I think it’s you That's miffed because the point seems to be beyond you 😁 Fine. If you wish to deny it now. It's not really a problem. No matter what the rate is, to work a 12-hour shift, 7 days a week for weeks at a time is in, by, of itself, hard work. Even for those young, itinerant, dumb workers from Eastern Europe that you mentioned. To suggest otherwise is to insult workers who work such a shift. In any event, you assert that they're no more hard working than their UK co-workers. So, these young men from EE must have UK co-workers who work that kind of schedule. It would be great if you could provide us with evidence of that -- your anecdotes will do. You're all heart, aren't you? But please. Spare me the sermon. You are not worried about exploitation of immigrant workers. You're concerned about this misguided concept of yours that they accept such work conditions and thus "stagnate wages" and undercut the overpriced locals or worse, steal their jobs.
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 18:49:32 GMT
A person is a protectionist if he supports protections against the importation of cheap goods or labour, to keep prices and wages at a higher level than they would otherwise be. I have wronged you if you support the importation of cheap labour and goods and have never complained that FOM lowers wages. I only hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. Your definition suggests anything other than a totally unregulated economy is guilty of protectionism. If that’s the case then I don’t see your point , Darling. Where exactly have I been self contradictory? I have pointed out how, in my experience, wages were stagnated and working conditions were made poorer by an uncontrolled influx of migrants . You seem to want to ignore that point made and concentrate on a non point about whether I am a “protectionist”. You are a Tory and I claim my brown envelope . Nah, just pointing out a contradiction in the typical Brexiter position. You are a higher species of Brexiter, Benny. I've always admired that about you.
|
|