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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2022 19:22:46 GMT
Well said. And I totally agree. I must say, though, that this may a bit be a too consumerist or consumer-leaning for some. An inflated idea of worth is only that if people will not pay it. If the price is too high market forces will tend to favour cheaper. Spreading the labour market umbrella removes at a stroke the only things that the tradesman has as trading bargaining chips and that is availability and cost. Once the market is flooded then the price comes down and that is the intent. Then tradesmen start to work for peanuts as they did do in the early nineties when they were scrabbling for work because there was a glut of tradesmen and a shortage of work which carried on for a good few years. They then find that shortages of tradesmen no longer exist and the chances of making a bob or two in the good times vanish. It sounds like you're advocating that we moan about low prices. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 6, 2022 20:26:38 GMT
An inflated idea of worth is only that if people will not pay it. If the price is too high market forces will tend to favour cheaper. Spreading the labour market umbrella removes at a stroke the only things that the tradesman has as trading bargaining chips and that is availability and cost. Once the market is flooded then the price comes down and that is the intent. Then tradesmen start to work for peanuts as they did do in the early nineties when they were scrabbling for work because there was a glut of tradesmen and a shortage of work which carried on for a good few years. They then find that shortages of tradesmen no longer exist and the chances of making a bob or two in the good times vanish. It sounds like you're advocating that we moan about low prices. Much depends on how low prices are achieved. Colombian child labour may produce cheaper coal for us to use but I for one would rather pay a bit more. If low prices are achieved by importing lots of workers from abroad then I also would not object to pay a bit more. The value of a worker is only relevant to how good he is and how much competition he has for work. Market forces tends to drive up prices when any skill is in short supply and down when there is a glut. Importation of a glut is short term as when the lean times arrive, and they always do, that glut does two things, It drives prices to dangerous rock bottom and the public has to compensate the unemployed skilled workers through unemployment and/or retraining. In the long run all of us pay. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2022 21:04:37 GMT
It sounds like you're advocating that we moan about low prices. Much depends on how low prices are achieved. Colombian child labour may produce cheaper coal for us to use but I for one would rather pay a bit more. If low prices are achieved by importing lots of workers from abroad then I also would not object to pay a bit more. The value of a worker is only relevant to how good he is and how much competition he has for work. Market forces tends to drive up prices when any skill is in short supply and down when there is a glut. Importation of a glut is short term as when the lean times arrive, and they always do, that glut does two things, It drives prices to dangerous rock bottom and the public has to compensate the unemployed skilled workers through unemployment and/or retraining. In the long run all of us pay. It doesn't really mean much to say that you, personally, would not object to pay a bit more. That attitude has to come from a substantial part, if not the entirety, of the consumer population to be meaningful. What about those who are on benefits or fixed income -- would they be willing to pay a bit more to support our overpriced, uncompetitive locals? At any rate, it seems you are talking more about the morality of choosing to employ imported workers over high priced locals. That's well and good but there has to be a comparison between that and outsourcing production of goods to achieve the same objective -- low production costs. I mean, so big construction companies employ Eastern Europeans who work 24/7 and arguably (?) receive low wages, but M&S outsource production of their goods to China, India, and other low wage countries -- leaving local workers with no jobs. One has a more devastating effect than the other, but really, where do you draw the line with this morality issue? |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 6, 2022 22:18:48 GMT
Much depends on how low prices are achieved. Colombian child labour may produce cheaper coal for us to use but I for one would rather pay a bit more. If low prices are achieved by importing lots of workers from abroad then I also would not object to pay a bit more. The value of a worker is only relevant to how good he is and how much competition he has for work. Market forces tends to drive up prices when any skill is in short supply and down when there is a glut. Importation of a glut is short term as when the lean times arrive, and they always do, that glut does two things, It drives prices to dangerous rock bottom and the public has to compensate the unemployed skilled workers through unemployment and/or retraining. In the long run all of us pay. It doesn't really mean much to say that you, personally, would not object to pay a bit more. That attitude has to come from a substantial part, if not the entirety, of the consumer population to be meaningful. What about those who are on benefits or fixed income -- would they be willing to pay a bit more to support our overpriced, uncompetitive locals? At any rate, it seems you are talking more about the morality of choosing to employ imported workers over high priced locals. That's well and good but there has to be a comparison between that and outsourcing production of goods to achieve the same objective -- low production costs. I mean, so big construction companies employ Eastern Europeans who work 24/7 and arguably (?) receive low wages, but M&S outsource production of their goods to China, India, and other low wage countries -- leaving local workers with no jobs. One has a more devastating effect than the other, but really, where do you draw the line with this morality issue? What I said was that importing workers from abroad has consequences to the whole community in terms of times of a glut of tradesmen and the costs of that period of glut will fall upon everyone not just those who have benefited from short term lower prices. That is where the morality lies we all potentially pay a cost for the cheaper prices for some. The rest is another subject which would miss the point. Anyone may or may not need a tradesman and that is a cost to consider in the grand scheme of things. Individual responsibility means that is what one has to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2022 22:51:55 GMT
It doesn't really mean much to say that you, personally, would not object to pay a bit more. That attitude has to come from a substantial part, if not the entirety, of the consumer population to be meaningful. What about those who are on benefits or fixed income -- would they be willing to pay a bit more to support our overpriced, uncompetitive locals? At any rate, it seems you are talking more about the morality of choosing to employ imported workers over high priced locals. That's well and good but there has to be a comparison between that and outsourcing production of goods to achieve the same objective -- low production costs. I mean, so big construction companies employ Eastern Europeans who work 24/7 and arguably (?) receive low wages, but M&S outsource production of their goods to China, India, and other low wage countries -- leaving local workers with no jobs. One has a more devastating effect than the other, but really, where do you draw the line with this morality issue? What I said was that importing workers from abroad has consequences to the whole community in terms of times of a glut of tradesmen and the costs of that period of glut will fall upon everyone not just those who have benefited from short term lower prices. That is where the morality lies we all potentially pay a cost for the cheaper prices for some. The rest is another subject which would miss the point. Anyone may or may not need a tradesman and that is a cost to consider in the grand scheme of things. Individual responsibility means that is what one has to do. Costs such as? It just sounds to me like you would rather keep prices high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 7, 2022 8:01:30 GMT
What I said was that importing workers from abroad has consequences to the whole community in terms of times of a glut of tradesmen and the costs of that period of glut will fall upon everyone not just those who have benefited from short term lower prices. That is where the morality lies we all potentially pay a cost for the cheaper prices for some. The rest is another subject which would miss the point. Anyone may or may not need a tradesman and that is a cost to consider in the grand scheme of things. Individual responsibility means that is what one has to do. Costs such as? It just sounds to me like you would rather keep prices high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Yet you are a massive supporter of the EU which is the biggest protectionist bloc in the world and keeps prices artificially high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Perhaps scrapping the EU's external tariff wall is your next campaign? |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 11:13:57 GMT
Nope your saying that because you want unlimited migration into the UK knowing that it stagnates wages and effects the people on the lower wage scale but at the same time blame the Tories for low wages . See I can do that . No, I'm saying you're being contradictory. I thought I made that clear. .I haven’t been contradictory. You are making false claims then using those false claims to create a strawman . You .. “Yet, you criticise the EU for being protectionist.” Please quote my post where I have criticised the EU for being protectionist. Saying “ well your Brexit mates say it “ will not do. Making up |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 11:16:07 GMT
Costs such as? It just sounds to me like you would rather keep prices high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Yet you are a massive supporter of the EU which is the biggest protectionist bloc in the world and keeps prices artificially high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Perhaps scrapping the EU's external tariff wall is your next campaign? False equivalence. ^ |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 11:16:40 GMT
No, I'm saying you're being contradictory. I thought I made that clear. .I haven’t been contradictory. You are making false claims then using those false claims to create a strawman . You .. “Yet, you criticise the EU for being protectionist.” Please quote my post where I have criticised the EU for being protectionist. Saying “ well your Brexit mates say it “ will not do. Making up Well, you're practically the only Brexiter on here who hasn't, if that's the case. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 11:20:24 GMT
Yes , it did go over your head . Thanks for confirming it. No need to thank me -- I just wanted to clarify the inconsistencies in your previous post. But you're welcome! Next time, hopefully, your bases will be more factual than anecdotal. There is are inconsistencies . Your false claim that if I do not post incidents of non itinerant, young , non European agency workers working outside of safety rules and long hours , it creates inconsistencies only illustrates that the point made has gone over your head . I won’t thank you for your own inadequacy. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 11:22:45 GMT
.I haven’t been contradictory. You are making false claims then using those false claims to create a strawman . You .. “Yet, you criticise the EU for being protectionist.” Please quote my post where I have criticised the EU for being protectionist. Saying “ well your Brexit mates say it “ will not do. Making up Well, you're practically the only Brexiter on here who hasn't, if that's the case. So you admit that you made a false claim , darling ….. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 11:25:15 GMT
Well, you're practically the only Brexiter on here who hasn't, if that's the case. So you admit that you made a false claim , darling ….. I done you wrong. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 11:39:26 GMT
So you admit that you made a false claim , darling ….. I done you wrong. I’m well aware that my experiences are anecdotal but they are experiences over at least a decade , starting from only Poles to just about everyone from Hungary to Romania . I made a point to talk to ( and to a point , befriend) my assistants( some some becoming semi skilled over time ) . I witnessed the effect they had on wages, how the employers cynically used them as a weapon against the English workers and how willing they were to be used. I know quite a few people who work in construction too. Their experience is very similar. I maintain that my experience is quite a good overall view of the EU migrant experience in the UK and a reflection of their effect on lower paid workers. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 7, 2022 11:45:09 GMT
I’m well aware that my experiences are anecdotal but they are experiences over at least a decade , starting from only Poles to just about everyone from Hungary to Romania . I made a point to talk to ( and to a point , befriend) my assistants( some some becoming semi skilled over time ) . I witnessed the effect they had on wages, how the employers cynically used them as a weapon against the English workers and how willing they were to be used. I know quite a few people who work in construction too. Their experience is very similar. I maintain that my experience is quite a good overall view of the EU migrant experience in the UK and a reflection of their effect on lower paid workers. Okay, we've already established that you favour protectionism. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 7, 2022 11:49:54 GMT
I’m well aware that my experiences are anecdotal but they are experiences over at least a decade , starting from only Poles to just about everyone from Hungary to Romania . I made a point to talk to ( and to a point , befriend) my assistants( some some becoming semi skilled over time ) . I witnessed the effect they had on wages, how the employers cynically used them as a weapon against the English workers and how willing they were to be used. I know quite a few people who work in construction too. Their experience is very similar. I maintain that my experience is quite a good overall view of the EU migrant experience in the UK and a reflection of their effect on lower paid workers. Okay, we've already established that you favour protectionism. Nope. We’ve already established that you falsely claimed that . A new discovery is that you repeat the false accusation anyway . |
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