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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 19:05:23 GMT
Costs such as? It just sounds to me like you would rather keep prices high for consumers to support uncompetitively priced local workers. Costs such as tax credits, unemployment benefits. Prices being high is a consequence of insufficient numbers in the field, prices being low are a consequence of too many. On balance I prefer the former as it is cheaper for the country in the long term, avoids immigration, avoids pressures on local communities in terms of cultural changes and social cohesion. So in reality the person who need teh tradesman pays the cost of that tradesman. As long as I have been alive prior to the EU there has always been ups and downs in tradesmen numbers. So, again, the effect is similar as that of outsourcing. With outsourcing, the effect is complete wipe out of opportunities. Yet we don't hear people complain about this. Immigration, on the other hand, promotes healthy labour competition resulting in lower production costs and efficiency but it is always the subject of debates. I have to say; you're making it sound as though immigrant workers were taking jobs away from local tradesmen. Yes, our locals have had to make adjustments in the way that they couldn't charge an arm and a leg for a 15-minute job anymore and they did more training to maintain their high fees. Or they even banded together to be more visible. They've had to compete. And a lot have been doing it very well. But those who have found themselves out of work must have chosen not to compete. At the end of the day, it seems that your concern is not really about the economic effect of immigrant workers but the sociological impact of having foreigners in your midst. |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 7, 2022 21:50:00 GMT
The government was obviously thinking only about wage depression in private industries, which are all that has been mentioned in this thread. Because now the immigrants who worked in public paid jobs have gone home, the government refuses to fulfil what it offered and pay public sector workers more.
As usual, the Tories expected the private sector to do the heavy lifting but refuses to take responsibility for doing what it promised in the public sector. Well the immigrants who worked in the public sector have not gone home and public sector pay is quite generous. Have you not heard the NHS issues recently? The Brexit promise was that a reduced workforce would push up wages. And today it is that government which refused to put up wages because the staffing is so sparse. Instead more people are leaving state employment and finding jobs in the private sector.and staffing is even more sparse with no response from the Brexit government except to restrict the right to strike. One has to wonder if this wasn't the plan along. Except that people are dying along the way. Which of course government like Stephen Barclay says is the employees' fault. Their fault people wait hours for an ambulance and then hours to be admitted to hospital. The fault is in fact years of disregarding the need for domiciliary care. So what happened to the 350,000 pounds per whatever on the side of that bus? How many dead people did that lie cost? No Brexit is not working. It is another revelation of another lie sold to those who believed in unicorns. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 7, 2022 22:46:26 GMT
Well the immigrants who worked in the public sector have not gone home and public sector pay is quite generous. Have you not heard the NHS issues recently? The Brexit promise was that a reduced workforce would push up wages. And today it is that government which refused to put up wages because the staffing is so sparse. Instead more people are leaving state employment and finding jobs in the private sector.and staffing is even more sparse with no response from the Brexit government except to restrict the right to strike. One has to wonder if this wasn't the plan along. Except that people are dying along the way. Which of course government like Stephen Barclay says is the employees' fault. Their fault people wait hours for an ambulance and then hours to be admitted to hospital. The fault is in fact years of disregarding the need for domiciliary care. So what happened to the 350,000 pounds per whatever on the side of that bus? How many dead people did that lie cost? No Brexit is not working. It is another revelation of another lie sold to those who believed in unicorns. I'm sorry but in all that waffle I lost track of your argument. Since 2016 employment in the NHS has risen and there are now a higher percentage of foreign workers in the NHS than there was in 2016. So what exactly are you complaining about? |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 8, 2022 10:06:01 GMT
Have you not heard the NHS issues recently? The Brexit promise was that a reduced workforce would push up wages. And today it is that government which refused to put up wages because the staffing is so sparse. Instead more people are leaving state employment and finding jobs in the private sector.and staffing is even more sparse with no response from the Brexit government except to restrict the right to strike. One has to wonder if this wasn't the plan along. Except that people are dying along the way. Which of course government like Stephen Barclay says is the employees' fault. Their fault people wait hours for an ambulance and then hours to be admitted to hospital. The fault is in fact years of disregarding the need for domiciliary care. So what happened to the 350,000 pounds per whatever on the side of that bus? How many dead people did that lie cost? No Brexit is not working. It is another revelation of another lie sold to those who believed in unicorns. I'm sorry but in all that waffle I lost track of your argument. Since 2016 employment in the NHS has risen and there are now a higher percentage of foreign workers in the NHS than there was in 2016. So what exactly are you complaining about? Please provide statistical evidence to counter this: www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/the-long-goodbye-exploring-rates-of-staff-leaving-the-nhs-and-social-careThe government promised FEWER foreign workers in the NHS. Not MORE. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 8, 2022 11:38:23 GMT
It doesn't matter what the leave rate is if you have more people joining than leaving - and as total headcount in the NHS has risen then that is obviously the case. With regards to what the Government promised - governments promise a lot of things all the time, very rarely are they delivered. The fact is that we have more immigrants in the NHS than ever before - so saying that the pay is not good enough to attract foreign workers is plainly wrong. |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 9, 2022 8:36:59 GMT
It doesn't matter what the leave rate is if you have more people joining than leaving - and as total headcount in the NHS has risen then that is obviously the case. With regards to what the Government promised - governments promise a lot of things all the time, very rarely are they delivered. The fact is that we have more immigrants in the NHS than ever before - so saying that the pay is not good enough to attract foreign workers is plainly wrong. What a load of waffle with no evidence. Are you seriously telling me that people are waiting hours for or in ambulances are there because there are enough NHS care workers to get them home? And since covid the number of nurses has not gone down? My link says otherwise. And what is this nonsense about pay? Brexit propaganda said when immigrants go home pay would go up in all areas, including the NHS because more native nationals would want to join. All the UK has done is exchange EU nationals for those from further away, and this also applies to agriculture where some labour is now from Tajikistan and Kyrgystan, where agencies are ripping off the workers by charging huge fees to find them work. Where are all those benefits so often promised by Leavers? Other countries experienced Covid and the energy crisis but are way ahead of the UK in economic recovery...the only difference is Brexit and the idiots who were elected to government because of the ridiculous promises they made but had no idea how to bring about. The only thing that will create growth in the UK is a serious injection of investment from outside the country and that isn't going to happen when there is a large pool of financial support and groundbreaking research in the EU. Fiddling around with bankers bonuses is not going to rescue the UK from important international competition which creates real growth in the economy. Leavers were warned. But chose not to listen. More and more are now seeing the con. But the country now has to live with it. So there are now strikes all over public sectors who were told their wages would go up post Brexit. By the very government who did the promising. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 11:17:00 GMT
From Oracel75: "Other countries experienced Covid and the energy crisis but are way ahead of the UK in economic recovery...the only difference is Brexit."
Let's hope our resident Brexit-damage deniers can find justification and validation for the above and for the fact that the UK is the only G7 country whose economy remains below pre-pandemic level.
It'll probably be the usual ERG-Reesmug garbage about playing the waiting game. 50 years, the man said.
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Post by buccaneer on Dec 9, 2022 11:30:44 GMT
9 pages in and the EU still hasn't worked.
Oh well.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2022 11:32:46 GMT
It doesn't matter what the leave rate is if you have more people joining than leaving - and as total headcount in the NHS has risen then that is obviously the case. With regards to what the Government promised - governments promise a lot of things all the time, very rarely are they delivered. The fact is that we have more immigrants in the NHS than ever before - so saying that the pay is not good enough to attract foreign workers is plainly wrong. What a load of waffle with no evidence. Are you seriously telling me that people are waiting hours for or in ambulances are there because there are enough NHS care workers to get them home? And since covid the number of nurses has not gone down? My link says otherwise. Do you not research anything? Record numbers of staff working in the NHS |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 9, 2022 15:33:49 GMT
What a load of waffle with no evidence. Are you seriously telling me that people are waiting hours for or in ambulances are there because there are enough NHS care workers to get them home? And since covid the number of nurses has not gone down? My link says otherwise. Do you not research anything? Record numbers of staff working in the NHSI do and I notice there is no mention of care workers, whom I mentioned. You dont still believe the selective garbage Leavers like Steve Barclay still tell you, do you? He knows the public know NHS staff are just doctors and nurses. Not care workers, auxiliary staff, cleaners, or consultants. By now the facts are in what is not mentioned, not in what is. It has always been a leavers' first principle. |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 9, 2022 16:28:39 GMT
Course it's worked, we're out.
Life goes on.
Get over it.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 17:06:38 GMT
Costs such as tax credits, unemployment benefits. Prices being high is a consequence of insufficient numbers in the field, prices being low are a consequence of too many. On balance I prefer the former as it is cheaper for the country in the long term, avoids immigration, avoids pressures on local communities in terms of cultural changes and social cohesion. So in reality the person who need teh tradesman pays the cost of that tradesman. As long as I have been alive prior to the EU there has always been ups and downs in tradesmen numbers. So, again, the effect is similar as that of outsourcing. With outsourcing, the effect is complete wipe out of opportunities. Yet we don't hear people complain about this. Immigration, on the other hand, promotes healthy labour competition resulting in lower production costs and efficiency but it is always the subject of debates. I have to say; you're making it sound as though immigrant workers were taking jobs away from local tradesmen. Yes, our locals have had to make adjustments in the way that they couldn't charge an arm and a leg for a 15-minute job anymore and they did more training to maintain their high fees. Or they even banded together to be more visible. They've had to compete. And a lot have been doing it very well. But those who have found themselves out of work must have chosen not to compete. At the end of the day, it seems that your concern is not really about the economic effect of immigrant workers but the sociological impact of having foreigners in your midst. I think many have been complaining for years as regards outsourcing however the point is as regards inward migration as a means of keeping wages low. Well if immigrant workers are forcing the locals to make adjustments then they are undercutting and potentially taking jobs away. Banding together becomes a cartel if they divi out work to each other and is certainly illegal in construction after some pretty horrendous instance back in teh 70s/80. Immigration has an impact both economic and sociological. If you had not noticed we do have a great deal of inter ethnic unrest and dissatisfaction and quite often there is not a white face to be seen. So the costs are not limited by any means to direct economic costs. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2022 17:29:54 GMT
I do and I notice there is no mention of care workers, whom I mentioned. You dont still believe the selective garbage Leavers like Steve Barclay still tell you, do you? He knows the public know NHS staff are just doctors and nurses. Not care workers, auxiliary staff, cleaners, or consultants. By now the facts are in what is not mentioned, not in what is. It has always been a leavers' first principle. OK then - take Doctors. In Aung 2016 there were 106,680 Doctors working in the NHS - this Aug (2022) there were 130,398 Doctors working in the NHS. - all these figures are published regularly by the NHS, so you making up stuff is a bit pointless. |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 11, 2022 10:46:42 GMT
I do and I notice there is no mention of care workers, whom I mentioned. You dont still believe the selective garbage Leavers like Steve Barclay still tell you, do you? He knows the public know NHS staff are just doctors and nurses. Not care workers, auxiliary staff, cleaners, or consultants. By now the facts are in what is not mentioned, not in what is. It has always been a leavers' first principle. OK then - take Doctors. In Aung 2016 there were 106,680 Doctors working in the NHS - this Aug (2022) there were 130,398 Doctors working in the NHS. - all these figures are published regularly by the NHS, so you making up stuff is a bit pointless. The Workforce: recruitment, training and retention report outlines the scale of the workforce crisis: new research suggests the NHS in England is short of 12,000 hospital doctors and more than 50,000 nurses and midwives; evidence on workforce projections say an extra 475,000 jobs will be needed in health and an extra 490,000 jobs in social care by the early part of the next decade; hospital waiting lists reached a record high of nearly 6.5 million in April. UK Parliamentary Committee 25 July 2022 committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/172310/persistent-understaffing-of-nhs-a-serious-risk-to-patient-safety-warn-mps/ |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2022 11:19:43 GMT
Well you can argue that the number of Doctors has not risen as fast as you would have liked - what you cannot do is argue that the number of Doctors has not risen.
Not totally clear what this has to do with the EU though.
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