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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 10:33:29 GMT
What makes a person English, according to the English
With English identity on the rise, the final installment in YouGov's series on nationality looks at what it takes to be English
English national identity can often seem indistinguisable from British identity in general. England has no national Parliament, no national anthem, its national day is not observed as a holiday – it is only really in the field of sport that England is highly visible as a nation in its own right.
This may not remain the case forever, though, with YouGov research carried out towards the end of last year for the former Labour MP John Denham, now at the University of Winchester’s Centre for English Identity and Politics, finding that national identity is shifting slowly from Britishness to Englishness.
At 38%, the largest proportion of English people consider themselves to be equally English and British. They are followed closely by the slightly more than a third (35%) who regard themselves to be more English (including 19% who said they were “English not British”).
yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/17469-what-makes-person-english-according-english
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 10:35:41 GMT
 Meanwhile just 18% said they were more British (including only 8% said they were “British not English”), representing a 5% decrease in the number of people holding a more British identity since the same time last year. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 11:46:42 GMT
Meanwhile just 18% said they were more British (including only 8% said they were “British not English”), representing a 5% decrease in the number of people holding a more British identity since the same time last year. How is an English adult defined. David Lammy says he is an English adult yet clearly he is also an ethnic minority. If the poll was random it would include about 20% BAME. To my mind English is an ethnicity, it matters little what heritage you have but English is the only identity you have as regards the bottom line. On the way up British is next, then Western European etc. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 11:49:57 GMT
Meanwhile just 18% said they were more British (including only 8% said they were “British not English”), representing a 5% decrease in the number of people holding a more British identity since the same time last year. How is an English adult defined. David Lammy says he is an English adult yet clearly he is also an ethnic minority. If the poll was random it would include about 20% BAME. To my mind English is an ethnicity, it matters little what heritage you have but English is the only identity you have as regards the bottom line. On the way up British is next, then Western European etc. read the article sandy , and in particular the section "he is an Englishman" for the definitions . are you suggesting someone cant be English if they are black? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2024 12:16:50 GMT
These days. apart from antediluvian Empire Loyalists and a lunatic fringe of fundamentalist Brexiteers, the principal clientel for a British identity are those who can't make a legitimate claim on one the four national, ethnically-based identities. We all know who I'm talking about, as Yasmin Alibhai-Brown confirmed in a discussion without Scots nationalist Tom Nairn: "“But the larger part of me is frightened by the implications: the ease with which you give up on the modern British nation and your sanguine belief that Scottish nationalism will not necessarily produce excluding, mean and dangerous influences. The irony is that black and Asian Britons today feel more deeply about their British identity than any of the indigenous groups. Once, not that long ago, this identity represented humiliation.We had blue British passports (we kept in bank safe deposit boxes with the most precious family jewels) which since 1968 had been rendered worthless, denying us the basic rights of citizenship in this country. We were never accepted as of this island. I am still asked every week where I come from and why I speak such good English. But in the last few years we have embraced and transformed Britishness and by doing so redefined the British identity. Now Scottish,Welsh and English nationalists want to take this away and relegate us to those lesser beings who have no ancestral connections to this land. I do not want to see cultural, racial and now postdevolution fragmentation which is likely to destroy this new emerging British identity and replace it with something simpler and sweeter where we can all pretend that the ‘other’ will never confront our own complacency. That, I fear, is where you may be taking us.”
Emphasis added.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 12:30:57 GMT
How is an English adult defined. David Lammy says he is an English adult yet clearly he is also an ethnic minority. If the poll was random it would include about 20% BAME. To my mind English is an ethnicity, it matters little what heritage you have but English is the only identity you have as regards the bottom line. On the way up British is next, then Western European etc. read the article sandy , and in particular the section "he is an Englishman" for the definitions . are you suggesting someone cant be English if they are black? They can be an English National, which seems to be what is defined as English, but unlikely to be English Ethnicity. Mixing nationality (which English is not except in sport) with ethnicity allows the overwhelming of an ethnic group as of being non existent. It is a deliberate attempt to muddy the ethnic waters whereby heritage is a matter of pride for some but not allowed for others. Some people are English both nationally and ethnically and do not regard themselves as anything else except possibly British. Saying it is on the wane is just another attempt to expunge the English from history. Do not be overjoyed because it will not stop there as being English ethnically is aligned with being white generally and the Scots will not escape probably by the 2040s. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 16:13:03 GMT
read the article sandy , and in particular the section "he is an Englishman" for the definitions . are you suggesting someone cant be English if they are black? They can be an English National, which seems to be what is defined as English, but unlikely to be English Ethnicity. Mixing nationality (which English is not except in sport) with ethnicity allows the overwhelming of an ethnic group as of being non existent. It is a deliberate attempt to muddy the ethnic waters whereby heritage is a matter of pride for some but not allowed for others. Some people are English both nationally and ethnically and do not regard themselves as anything else except possibly British. Saying it is on the wane is just another attempt to expunge the English from history. Do not be overjoyed because it will not stop there as being English ethnically is aligned with being white generally and the Scots will not escape probably by the 2040s. how do you mean be not overjoyed? My point was to show how britishness , an empire based identity , as dan has alluded to up the page , appears to be on the wane in the very country where it began ...england. Ethnicity doesn't seem to factor in this poll of how the English regard someone as English. You are. the one making an issue of race , and colour , subtly of course , where in the article itself , it talks of the English regarding someone as being English for four main reasons, birth , parentage , upbringing and mentality. eh? I sometimes wonder sandy if you actually read what is being written , and what you are writing ? How is an article talking about the decline of britishness , and the rise of the English identity in england , an attempt to expunge the English from history? |
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 16:17:26 GMT
read the article sandy , and in particular the section "he is an Englishman" for the definitions . are you suggesting someone cant be English if they are black? They can be an English National, which seems to be what is defined as English, but unlikely to be English Ethnicity. Mixing nationality (which English is not except in sport) with ethnicity allows the overwhelming of an ethnic group as of being non existent. It is a deliberate attempt to muddy the ethnic waters whereby heritage is a matter of pride for some but not allowed for others. Some people are English both nationally and ethnically and do not regard themselves as anything else except possibly British. Saying it is on the wane is just another attempt to expunge the English from history. Do not be overjoyed because it will not stop there as being English ethnically is aligned with being white generally and the Scots will not escape probably by the 2040s. What is English ethnicity ? can you define it? is it someone with blond hair blue eyes who can trace their family tree back in england say 300 years? or are you simply once again alluding to skin colour? What about a black Englishman , with a white English mother , is he partially ethnically English? |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 17:00:37 GMT
They can be an English National, which seems to be what is defined as English, but unlikely to be English Ethnicity. Mixing nationality (which English is not except in sport) with ethnicity allows the overwhelming of an ethnic group as of being non existent. It is a deliberate attempt to muddy the ethnic waters whereby heritage is a matter of pride for some but not allowed for others. Some people are English both nationally and ethnically and do not regard themselves as anything else except possibly British. Saying it is on the wane is just another attempt to expunge the English from history. Do not be overjoyed because it will not stop there as being English ethnically is aligned with being white generally and the Scots will not escape probably by the 2040s. What is English ethnicity ? can you define it? is it someone with blond hair blue eyes who can trace their family tree back in england say 300 years? or are you simply once again alluding to skin colour? What about a black Englishman , with a white English mother , is he partially ethnically English? I refer you to the Law Lords judgment Mandla v Dowell Lee where ethnicity was defined quite clearly certainly in terms of Sikhs. I would expect English, Scots, Welsh to be no different. It is a matter of accepting and being accepted and realistically heritage has a smaller input than you would think. The race laws have complicated the issue as they immediately made people who were English become ethnic minorities. People cannot be both of English ethnicity and an ethnic minority all at the same time. I knew people woth curly hair and dark skins who were every bit as Scottish as I was. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 17:13:40 GMT
What is English ethnicity ? can you define it? is it someone with blond hair blue eyes who can trace their family tree back in england say 300 years? or are you simply once again alluding to skin colour? What about a black Englishman , with a white English mother , is he partially ethnically English? I refer you to the Law Lords judgment Mandla v Dowell Lee where ethnicity was defined quite clearly certainly in terms of Sikhs. I would expect English, Scots, Welsh to be no different. It is a matter of accepting and being accepted and realistically heritage has a smaller input than you would think. The race laws have complicated the issue as they immediately made people who were English become ethnic minorities. People cannot be both of English ethnicity and an ethnic minority all at the same time. I knew people woth curly hair and dark skins who were every bit as Scottish as I was. I cant speak for the English , merely point out what this article says , but to me , if you see yourself as Scottish , then thats good enough for me. you seem to be all het up about the decline of britishness , and who can or cant be English depending on their skin colour. The English themselves as I pointed out to you as per this article have defined englishness , and ethnicity doesn't appear to come into it. is boris Johnson English to you? Turkish ancestry , American birth ? Are are you only concerned with certain types of ethnicities ? what about a black Londoner who was born and bred in London , and has four generations of black ancestors who were born and bred in england? can they see themselves as English? Nationality is a mindset sandy. You British are always lecturing everyone on who cant or can be (insert nationality ) when it suits. you keep excluding people , and we Scots will keep embracing those who want to be Scottish. As britishness declines , and ends up in the dustbin of history like roman citizenship and other empire identities , I suspect English will become more inclusive . Thats up to the English though of course. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 17:17:26 GMT
They can be an English National, which seems to be what is defined as English, but unlikely to be English Ethnicity. Mixing nationality (which English is not except in sport) with ethnicity allows the overwhelming of an ethnic group as of being non existent. It is a deliberate attempt to muddy the ethnic waters whereby heritage is a matter of pride for some but not allowed for others. Some people are English both nationally and ethnically and do not regard themselves as anything else except possibly British. Saying it is on the wane is just another attempt to expunge the English from history. Do not be overjoyed because it will not stop there as being English ethnically is aligned with being white generally and the Scots will not escape probably by the 2040s. how do you mean be not overjoyed? My point was to show how britishness , an empire based identity , as dan has alluded to up the page , appears to be on the wane in the very country where it began ...england. Ethnicity doesn't seem to factor in this poll of how the English regard someone as English. You are. the one making an issue of race , and colour , subtly of course , where in the article itself , it talks of the English regarding someone as being English for four main reasons, birth , parentage , upbringing and mentality. eh? I sometimes wonder sandy if you actually read what is being written , and what you are writing ? How is an article talking about the decline of britishness , and the rise of the English identity in england , an attempt to expunge the English from history? British originates from the Union of the Crowns when Great Britain was effectively born. It then became an Empire based identity but that did not remove Scots, Welsh and English from being what they had been for many years. It is the attempts to expunge English from history by making everyone English even if they arrived last Tuesday morning and British is being gently reserved for the all comers group. It is a nonsense to have laws as regards ethnicity and then try and make a specific ethnicity just a Nationality that includes everyone and that is the point. The English are being redefined as a National group inclusive of many but within which ethnic minorities can exercise their right to an identity that the English are specifically obstructed from having. |
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2024 17:17:51 GMT
British is a nationality not an "identity".
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 17:21:32 GMT
British is a nationality not an "identity". its a citizenship , like European citizenship , open to anyone who is part of what remains of the old empire , including people in overseas territories. thats why you have the same passport as someone in Gibraltar , which isnt part of the British islands . Ergo its an identity . |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 18, 2024 17:26:09 GMT
I refer you to the Law Lords judgment Mandla v Dowell Lee where ethnicity was defined quite clearly certainly in terms of Sikhs. I would expect English, Scots, Welsh to be no different. It is a matter of accepting and being accepted and realistically heritage has a smaller input than you would think. The race laws have complicated the issue as they immediately made people who were English become ethnic minorities. People cannot be both of English ethnicity and an ethnic minority all at the same time. I knew people woth curly hair and dark skins who were every bit as Scottish as I was. I cant speak for the English , merely point out what this article says , but to me , if you see yourself as Scottish , then thats good enough for me. you seem to be all het up about the decline of britishness , and who can or cant be English depending on their skin colour. The English themselves as I pointed out to you as per this article have defined englishness , and ethnicity doesn't appear to come into it. is boris Johnson English to you? Turkish ancestry , American birth ? Are are you only concerned with certain types of ethnicities ? what about a black Londoner who was born and bred in London , and has four generations of black ancestors who were born and bred in england? can they see themselves as English? Nationality is a mindset sandy. You British are always lecturing everyone on who cant or can be (insert nationality ) when it suits. you keep excluding people , and we Scots will keep embracing those who want to be Scottish. As britishness declines , and ends up in the dustbin of history like roman citizenship and other empire identities , I suspect English will become more inclusive . Thats up to the English though of course. Sandy seems to think it's up to him to decide who can and can't call themselves English. Imagine if I was to walk into his local and start telling people in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 17:26:33 GMT
how do you mean be not overjoyed? My point was to show how britishness , an empire based identity , as dan has alluded to up the page , appears to be on the wane in the very country where it began ...england. Ethnicity doesn't seem to factor in this poll of how the English regard someone as English. You are. the one making an issue of race , and colour , subtly of course , where in the article itself , it talks of the English regarding someone as being English for four main reasons, birth , parentage , upbringing and mentality. eh? I sometimes wonder sandy if you actually read what is being written , and what you are writing ? How is an article talking about the decline of britishness , and the rise of the English identity in england , an attempt to expunge the English from history? British originates from the Union of the Crowns when Great Britain was effectively born. It then became an Empire based identity but that did not remove Scots, Welsh and English from being what they had been for many years. It is the attempts to expunge English from history by making everyone English even if they arrived last Tuesday morning and British is being gently reserved for the all comers group. It is a nonsense to have laws as regards ethnicity and then try and make a specific ethnicity just a Nationality that includes everyone and that is the point. The English are being redefined as a National group inclusive of many but within which ethnic minorities can exercise their right to an identity that the English are specifically obstructed from having. The English colonies to a lesser degree , ie what was to become known as the empire , already existed in 1603 in part. Oxford say 1583 is the year the empire began , or the first overseas colonies founded. so the American Virginia dare in Roanoke from memory was a British subject in 1603 as were Scots. the point is its always been an empire identity , not exclusive to people born in these islands. ...and now its dying........ |
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