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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 18:31:59 GMT
As is usual when the subject of the English and their ethnicity come up in venues such as this one, there is a great deal of confusion, misinformation and obfuscation bandied about, which typically has the objective of denying the native English their ethnic identity. The following is quite widely cited in the literature in addition in appearing in what is probably the standard textbook for postgraduate study in the field. It provides a comprehensive but succinct enumeration of the characteristics that a population must exhibit to be considered as an ethnie. The French term ethnie by the way, derives from the original Greek ethnos which has no equivalent noun in English, and is rendered accordingly as ‘ethnic group’ or ‘ethnic community’. ... Ethnies habitually exhibit, albeit in varying degrees, six main features: 1. a common proper name, to identify and express the 'essence' of the community; 2. a myth of common ancestry, a myth rather than a fact, a myth that includes the idea of common origin in time and place...what Horowitz termed a ‘super-family’; 3. shared historical memories, or better, shared memories of a common past, including heroes, events, and their commemoration; 4. one or more elements of common culture, which need not be specified in detail but normally include religion, customs, or language; 5. a link with a homeland, not necessarily its physical occupation by the ethnie, but a symbolic attachment to the ancestral land, as with diaspora peoples; 6. a sense of solidarity on the part of at least some sections of the ethnie's population. After highlighting the crucial importance of shared myth, memory and an orientation to the past in the definition of an ethnie the authors conclude that: “ The destiny of the community is bound up with its ethno-history [and] with its own understanding of a unique, shared past” If there is a practical or philosophical objection to this template and its application to the English, as opposed to one based on ideological grounds and straightforward anti-English animus and racism, now's the time to state it. For some reason they seem unable to process this information.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 18:38:24 GMT
To avoid your obvious confusion as regards what is ethnicity and what is nationality. stop prevaricating. Not prevaricating just ensuring I am being clear to avoid continued misrepresentation. I am ethnically Scots but Nationally British. I am not ethnically English although my son is and he is also Nationally British. He is part and parcel of a melting pot as his mother had some probable Maltese background as well as unknown elements but was ethnically English and Nationally British.
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Post by thomas on Aug 18, 2024 18:46:37 GMT
Not prevaricating just ensuring I am being clear to avoid continued misrepresentation. I am ethnically Scots but Nationally British. I am not ethnically English although my son is and he is also Nationally British. He is part and parcel of a melting pot as his mother had some probable Maltese background as well as unknown elements but was ethnically English and Nationally British. you are prevaricating. Clearly I was talking about nationality. your primary identity is British , hence a brit , where as Scottishness is a secondary identity to you . there was no hint or mention of ethnicity In either case . britishness is an empire identity as we have discussed , not exclusive to a particular country , so why would either of us be talking about ethnicity when I said you were a brit and you attempted to correct me as though I was speaking on your behalf? Dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. We see it on every thread on this and the old forum.
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 18, 2024 18:52:51 GMT
I don't think anyone here is denying the existence of English ethnicity. Do you deny the existence of English culture? Yes they are as Nationality is being confused with ethnicity in a seemingly deliberate way. Why would I deny the existence of English culture? So you accept that someone who is not ethnically English can be culturally English?
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 18, 2024 18:55:01 GMT
Not prevaricating just ensuring I am being clear to avoid continued misrepresentation. I am ethnically Scots but Nationally British. I am not ethnically English although my son is and he is also Nationally British. He is part and parcel of a melting pot as his mother had some probable Maltese background as well as unknown elements but was ethnically English and Nationally British. How can your son be ethnically English if he has an ethnically Scottish father? Didn't you repeatedly insist on another thread that I couldn't be English because I had an Irish father? Why is there one rule for me and another for your son?
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2024 19:34:05 GMT
English, Scottish? Both are British same principle as Texan / Californian, both are American.
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Post by bancroft on Aug 18, 2024 20:46:20 GMT
Most English had blond or fair hair with blue eyes,
The police would not recruit the working class English (Smith, Turner, Barnes etc) up until Blair instead they brought the Scots down with Brown hair and Brown eyes, this also helped cover up those of French and Norman lineage.
I know this as a criminal that drunk with my grandfather talked about this and that was why he said he was a criminal as the system was loaded against normal English getting good positions and now we see positive discrimination for Johnny newcomers yet not the traditional working class.
Of course even without the Norman invasion there is no guaranty we would have been better off.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 21:23:28 GMT
Not prevaricating just ensuring I am being clear to avoid continued misrepresentation. I am ethnically Scots but Nationally British. I am not ethnically English although my son is and he is also Nationally British. He is part and parcel of a melting pot as his mother had some probable Maltese background as well as unknown elements but was ethnically English and Nationally British. How can your son be ethnically English if he has an ethnically Scottish father? Didn't you repeatedly insist on another thread that I couldn't be English because I had an Irish father? Why is there one rule for me and another for your son? Because he does not believe he is anything else. The point I made on another thread was that you were happy to be both Irish and English despite being culturally English. I did not say you could not be English I said you did not regard yourself as being ethnically English. You were both Irish and English and I asked where that put those who were just English. You claimed what they had in total but also claimed an addition to what they had in Irish heritage. I do not pretend it is easy but outlook in many ways is everything. It is not a matter of hard and fast rules as it requires respect that is reciprocated and therein lies the problem.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 18, 2024 21:33:14 GMT
Not prevaricating just ensuring I am being clear to avoid continued misrepresentation. I am ethnically Scots but Nationally British. I am not ethnically English although my son is and he is also Nationally British. He is part and parcel of a melting pot as his mother had some probable Maltese background as well as unknown elements but was ethnically English and Nationally British. you are prevaricating. Clearly I was talking about nationality. your primary identity is British , hence a brit , where as Scottishness is a secondary identity to you . there was no hint or mention of ethnicity In either case . britishness is an empire identity as we have discussed , not exclusive to a particular country , so why would either of us be talking about ethnicity when I said you were a brit and you attempted to correct me as though I was speaking on your behalf? Dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. We see it on every thread on this and the old forum. No your link was with regards to English adults and I wondered what was an English adult as English, Scots and Welsh are the ethnic groups of the UK Great Britain part and British is the overarching nationality of the whole. The English part turned out to be English Nationals which realistically has not been a separate Nationality for quite some time. I see in this another way to downplay the English as being largely of no true description and effectively a la Alibhai Brown a mongrel race like all Brits. Her words not mine. I corrected you because you said I was not Scottish if I recall the order of events correctly. What you were trying to convey was not necessarily what you did convey.
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 19, 2024 6:05:42 GMT
How can your son be ethnically English if he has an ethnically Scottish father? Didn't you repeatedly insist on another thread that I couldn't be English because I had an Irish father? Why is there one rule for me and another for your son? Because he does not believe he is anything else. The point I made on another thread was that you were happy to be both Irish and English despite being culturally English. I did not say you could not be English I said you did not regard yourself as being ethnically English. You were both Irish and English and I asked where that put those who were just English. You claimed what they had in total but also claimed an addition to what they had in Irish heritage. I do not pretend it is easy but outlook in many ways is everything. It is not a matter of hard and fast rules as it requires respect that is reciprocated and therein lies the problem. So one's ethnicity is entirely down to self identification? I am an Englishman of Irish parentage, just like your son is an Englishman of Scottish parentage. David Lammy is English because he identifies as English. Agreed?
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 6:32:06 GMT
Because he does not believe he is anything else. The point I made on another thread was that you were happy to be both Irish and English despite being culturally English. I did not say you could not be English I said you did not regard yourself as being ethnically English. You were both Irish and English and I asked where that put those who were just English. You claimed what they had in total but also claimed an addition to what they had in Irish heritage. I do not pretend it is easy but outlook in many ways is everything. It is not a matter of hard and fast rules as it requires respect that is reciprocated and therein lies the problem. So one's ethnicity is entirely down to self identification? I am an Englishman of Irish parentage, just like your son is an Englishman of Scottish parentage. David Lammy is English because he identifies as English. Agreed? No I said it is a process of accepting and acceptance. One has to accept that one is something and one has to be accepted as that something by the overwhelming majority of those who are that something. The problem you have is you identified yourself as of Irish heritage, I did not say it, I did not ask. So where does that leave those who are of English heritage as you are saying you are of them but different from them. I think it is reasonably fair to say that if a person of English heritage lived in Ireland and spoke with reverence as regards his English heritage then most of the Irish would view him as a dubious Irishman. David Lammy is an example of a person who seems intent on destroying English identity as belonging to anyone and is keen to see it usurped for political and seemingly personal reasons. And he comes as a member of a party where identity is now a very important issue.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 6:51:11 GMT
Most English had blond or fair hair with blue eyes, The police would not recruit the working class English (Smith, Turner, Barnes etc) up until Blair instead they brought the Scots down with Brown hair and Brown eyes, this also helped cover up those of French and Norman lineage. I know this as a criminal that drunk with my grandfather talked about this and that was why he said he was a criminal as the system was loaded against normal English getting good positions and now we see positive discrimination for Johnny newcomers yet not the traditional working class. Of course even without the Norman invasion there is no guaranty we would have been better off. There is something in that, the Norman invasion was the best part of 1000 years ago and its long term effects and divisions within all areas of English society are still being noted. The current invasion will continue on problems for the next thousand.
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Post by thomas on Aug 19, 2024 6:53:54 GMT
you are prevaricating. Clearly I was talking about nationality. your primary identity is British , hence a brit , where as Scottishness is a secondary identity to you . there was no hint or mention of ethnicity In either case . britishness is an empire identity as we have discussed , not exclusive to a particular country , so why would either of us be talking about ethnicity when I said you were a brit and you attempted to correct me as though I was speaking on your behalf? Dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. We see it on every thread on this and the old forum. No your link was with regards to English adults and I wondered what was an English adult as English, Scots and Welsh are the ethnic groups of the UK Great Britain part and British is the overarching nationality of the whole. The English part turned out to be English Nationals which realistically has not been a separate Nationality for quite some time. I see in this another way to downplay the English as being largely of no true description and effectively a la Alibhai Brown a mongrel race like all Brits. Her words not mine. I corrected you because you said I was not Scottish if I recall the order of events correctly. What you were trying to convey was not necessarily what you did convey. you are prevaricating and trying to muddy the waters as per normal. my link does not make one single mention of ethnicity.......it talks about the English national identity and nationality. you brought ethnicity into it in your first reply to my ops regarding lammy , and how you dont like him being English as he is a black man. Then when I called you a brit , as explained in terms of national identification , you misunderstood , and tried to trip me up by telling me not to speak on you behalf , then later admitting you are indeed a brit , prompting this latest discussion. An honest man , which you are not , would hold his hands up , admit a simple misunderstanding , and move on. Honesty isnt in you though. You dont even have the courage of your racist convictions. dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/17469-what-makes-person-english-according-english
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Post by Vinny on Aug 19, 2024 7:04:14 GMT
Good morning fellow Brits.
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Post by thomas on Aug 19, 2024 7:05:41 GMT
you are prevaricating. Clearly I was talking about nationality. your primary identity is British , hence a brit , where as Scottishness is a secondary identity to you . there was no hint or mention of ethnicity In either case . britishness is an empire identity as we have discussed , not exclusive to a particular country , so why would either of us be talking about ethnicity when I said you were a brit and you attempted to correct me as though I was speaking on your behalf? Dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. We see it on every thread on this and the old forum. I corrected you because you said I was not Scottish if I recall the order of events correctly. I stand by what I said. I said you are British not Scottish in terms of national ID , which you later agreed with. Whats to correct? you agreed with me , but threw in some waffle about ethnicity , which I wasnt talking about , my article isnt talking about , and it was clear this wasnt what was meant when I suggested you are a brit.
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