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Post by thomas on Aug 19, 2024 7:06:19 GMT
Good morning fellow Brits. hello fellow European. |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 7:07:40 GMT
No your link was with regards to English adults and I wondered what was an English adult as English, Scots and Welsh are the ethnic groups of the UK Great Britain part and British is the overarching nationality of the whole. The English part turned out to be English Nationals which realistically has not been a separate Nationality for quite some time. I see in this another way to downplay the English as being largely of no true description and effectively a la Alibhai Brown a mongrel race like all Brits. Her words not mine. I corrected you because you said I was not Scottish if I recall the order of events correctly. What you were trying to convey was not necessarily what you did convey. you are prevaricating and trying to muddy the waters as per normal. my link does not make one single mention of ethnicity.......it talks about the English national identity and nationality. you brought ethnicity into it in your first reply to my ops regarding lammy , and how you dont like him being English as he is a black man. Then when I called you a brit , as explained in terms of national identification , you misunderstood , and tried to trip me up by telling me not to speak on you behalf , then later admitting you are indeed a brit , prompting this latest discussion. An honest man , which you are not , would hold his hands up , admit a simple misunderstanding , and move on. Honesty isnt in you though. You dont even have the courage of your racist convictions. dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/17469-what-makes-person-english-according-englishYour link says that the study was carried out by a group as regards English Identity, not English National Identity. I stated my opinion clearly that it was another report and another attempt to create an English identity that belongs to all that anyone can join as opposed to having an English ethnic group. It is a step in the process. Play up English National identity downplay English ethnic identity. It has politics screaming out from the background. It is a strange world where I support the right of any group to self identify as an ethnic group where others deny that right to specific groups and I am the one called racist. It is indeed the world turned upside down. Lammy identifies as an ethnic minority in the UK he has made that clear in many of his utterances over the years, fine that is his prerogative. He cannot have it both ways being part of the whole and not part of the whole, |
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 7:10:54 GMT
I corrected you because you said I was not Scottish if I recall the order of events correctly. I stand by what I said. I said you are British not Scottish in terms of national ID , which you later agreed with. Whats to correct? you agreed with me , but threw in some waffle about ethnicity , which I wasnt talking about , my article isnt talking about , and it was clear this wasnt what was meant when I suggested you are a brit. You said "sandy isnt Scottish , he is a brit . the same generation in scotland who vote for the union by a majority , and are being shafted by the British over their winter fuel payments , and much else" I answered. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 19, 2024 7:17:41 GMT
you are prevaricating and trying to muddy the waters as per normal. my link does not make one single mention of ethnicity.......it talks about the English national identity and nationality. you brought ethnicity into it in your first reply to my ops regarding lammy , and how you dont like him being English as he is a black man. Then when I called you a brit , as explained in terms of national identification , you misunderstood , and tried to trip me up by telling me not to speak on you behalf , then later admitting you are indeed a brit , prompting this latest discussion. An honest man , which you are not , would hold his hands up , admit a simple misunderstanding , and move on. Honesty isnt in you though. You dont even have the courage of your racist convictions. dishonest sandy wriggling as normal. yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/17469-what-makes-person-english-according-englishYour link says that the study was carried out by a group as regards English Identity, not English National Identity. I stated my opinion clearly that it was another report and another attempt to create an English identity that belongs to all that anyone can join as opposed to having an English ethnic group. It is a step in the process. Play up English National identity downplay English ethnic identity. It has politics screaming out from the background. It is a strange world where I support the right of any group to self identify as an ethnic group where others deny that right to specific groups and I am the one called racist. It is indeed the world turned upside down. Lammy identifies as an ethnic minority in the UK he has made that clear in many of his utterances over the years, fine that is his prerogative. He cannot have it both ways being part of the whole and not part of the whole, sandy prevaricating yet again. The study is about English nationality and identity. You , not the study mentioned ethnicity . can you quote me where in the article it mentions ethnicity? how can you waffle on you are British in nationality , ethnically Scottish , and Western European , yet Lammy cant call himself British in national ID , ethnically anglo guyanese ,and Western European? you cant see past skin colour can you sandy , therefore your rules dont apply to the untermenschen. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 19, 2024 7:21:25 GMT
I stand by what I said. I said you are British not Scottish in terms of national ID , which you later agreed with. Whats to correct? you agreed with me , but threw in some waffle about ethnicity , which I wasnt talking about , my article isnt talking about , and it was clear this wasnt what was meant when I suggested you are a brit. You said "sandy isnt Scottish , he is a brit . the same generation in scotland who vote for the union by a majority , and are being shafted by the British over their winter fuel payments , and much else" I answered. Here we go , he said she said , sandy prevaricating as normal. my post... sandy reply I qualified what I had said.. you agreed , then threw in your usual diversion... I repeat , I never mentioned , nor implied ethnicity. you did. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2024 7:33:18 GMT
A national identity which does not base itself on ethnicity only makes any sense and has explanatory value only in the context of civic nationalism.
On the other hand an ethnic national identity has been enthusiastically officially promoted across the Celtic Fringe and has there become synonymous with 'national identity' while the same concept has been deprecated and essentially tabooed for the English who have been compelled to forego their own identity. This happened originally in the cause of the Imperial project and more recently as an essential underpinning of the therapeutic multicultural state.
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 19, 2024 7:35:31 GMT
So one's ethnicity is entirely down to self identification? I am an Englishman of Irish parentage, just like your son is an Englishman of Scottish parentage. David Lammy is English because he identifies as English. Agreed? No I said it is a process of accepting and acceptance. One has to accept that one is something and one has to be accepted as that something by the overwhelming majority of those who are that something. The problem you have is you identified yourself as of Irish heritage, I did not say it, I did not ask. So where does that leave those who are of English heritage as you are saying you are of them but different from them. I think it is reasonably fair to say that if a person of English heritage lived in Ireland and spoke with reverence as regards his English heritage then most of the Irish would view him as a dubious Irishman. David Lammy is an example of a person who seems intent on destroying English identity as belonging to anyone and is keen to see it usurped for political and seemingly personal reasons. And he comes as a member of a party where identity is now a very important issue. Again you seem to be employing a double standard. Your son, David Lammy and myself all self identity as English but only your son is English apparently. And when exactly was it decided that you would decide who is and isn't English? I don't remember there being a vote. I am of Irish descent, this is a fact, just as it is a fact that your son is of Scottish descent. If being of Scottish descent doesn't stop your son being English why should being of Irish descent stop me from being English? This looks increasingly like a double standard you are applying against people you are in broad political disagreement with. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2024 7:51:03 GMT
Perhaps you fellows would be able to present more persuasive and coherent arguments if you did not rely so much for evidence on personal anecdotes which are generally only germane to your own particular situation.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 7:55:46 GMT
Your link says that the study was carried out by a group as regards English Identity, not English National Identity. I stated my opinion clearly that it was another report and another attempt to create an English identity that belongs to all that anyone can join as opposed to having an English ethnic group. It is a step in the process. Play up English National identity downplay English ethnic identity. It has politics screaming out from the background. It is a strange world where I support the right of any group to self identify as an ethnic group where others deny that right to specific groups and I am the one called racist. It is indeed the world turned upside down. Lammy identifies as an ethnic minority in the UK he has made that clear in many of his utterances over the years, fine that is his prerogative. He cannot have it both ways being part of the whole and not part of the whole, sandy prevaricating yet again. The study is about English nationality and identity. You , not the study mentioned ethnicity . can you quote me where in the article it mentions ethnicity? how can you waffle on you are British in nationality , ethnically Scottish , and Western European , yet Lammy cant call himself British in national ID , ethnically anglo guyanese ,and Western European? you cant see past skin colour can you sandy , therefore your rules dont apply to the untermenschen. The study may say it is about English national identity but it slips lightly from English, to English Nationals, to English identity, to English National identity as though they are all interchangeable and mean the same thing. If a study is talking about National Identity that is the term it uses all the way through. It does not. The study itself was unclear in what it meant and deliberately so. Lammy is British in Nationality I have never said otherwise, he is an ethnic minority in England by his own claim, so what he regards himself as ethnically is up to him in the first instance but he cannot be both an ethnic minority and part of the ethnic majority.. It is like saying I am of you unless I choose otherwise and you have no choice in that. It is the race laws that cannot see past skin colour, overnight they created ethnic minorities of people who were accepted as being of the whole. If the law gives one protected characteristics then one has to see those protected characteristics and identify people as having those protected characteristics, That seems to be stating the bleedin obvious. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 19, 2024 7:59:03 GMT
Perhaps you fellows would be able to present more persuasive and coherent arguments if you did not rely so much for evidence on personal anecdotes which are generally only germane to your own particular situation. You deny someone their national identity then complain about them making it personal? You have invented a criteria of Englishness which excludes people already self identified as English and seemingly recgonised as English by most of their compatriots. The emphasis is on you to make an argument as to why your criteria should be accepted as definitive. Thus far you have been far from convincing. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2024 8:03:51 GMT
I deny somebody my nationality identity based on ethnicity. Ethnically-based national identities are not fungible or portable. One the other hand, an individual may identify themselves as whatever they like, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us have to agree.
I couldn't move from Charleroi to Antwerp and magically metamorphosise overnight from a Walloon to a Fleming. Ditto Dublin to London.
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 19, 2024 8:06:58 GMT
I deny somebody my nationality identity based on ethnicity. Ethnically-based national identities are not fungible or portable. One the other hand, an individual may identify themselves as whatever they like, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us have to agree. And the rest of us don't have to agree with your definition of Englishness. I am English, you can jump up and down and stamp your feet all you like but it won't change a thing. "I couldn't move from Charleroi to Antwerp and magically metamorphosise overnight from a Walloon to a Fleming. Ditto Dublin to London." No, but if you were born in Dublin of English parents but raised in Ireland and then walked into a busy pub in England and announced to everyone there in your Irish accent that you were English I expect you'd be laughed out of the place. Just as I would be if I walked into a busy pub in Ireland and tried to pass myself off as Irish by wittering on in my English accent about ethnicity. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2024 8:11:06 GMT
You can consider yourself whatever you like.
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Post by sandypine on Aug 19, 2024 8:12:15 GMT
No I said it is a process of accepting and acceptance. One has to accept that one is something and one has to be accepted as that something by the overwhelming majority of those who are that something. The problem you have is you identified yourself as of Irish heritage, I did not say it, I did not ask. So where does that leave those who are of English heritage as you are saying you are of them but different from them. I think it is reasonably fair to say that if a person of English heritage lived in Ireland and spoke with reverence as regards his English heritage then most of the Irish would view him as a dubious Irishman. David Lammy is an example of a person who seems intent on destroying English identity as belonging to anyone and is keen to see it usurped for political and seemingly personal reasons. And he comes as a member of a party where identity is now a very important issue. Again you seem to be employing a double standard. Your son, David Lammy and myself all self identity as English but only your son is English apparently. And when exactly was it decided that you would decide who is and isn't English? I don't remember there being a vote. I am of Irish descent, this is a fact, just as it is a fact that your son is of Scottish descent. If being of Scottish descent doesn't stop your son being English why should being of Irish descent stop me from being English? This looks increasingly like a double standard you are applying against people you are in broad political disagreement with. I repeat it is a process of accepting and acceptance. My son thinks he is English, does not claim some other heritage and is accepted as being English. The broad consideration legally for considering ethnic differences. Lammy claims to be an ethnic minority, you claim an Irish heritage. Where does that leave people who have an English heritage. Both you and Lammy claim you are part of that whole yet both claim not to be part of that whole as it suits. Would you take recourse to law if someone said I do not want to employ any Irish to you, the point is as you claim Irish heritage you could and you would be successful as part of an ethnic minority group. That is the law and it depends on ethnic differences. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Aug 19, 2024 8:16:04 GMT
Again you seem to be employing a double standard. Your son, David Lammy and myself all self identity as English but only your son is English apparently. And when exactly was it decided that you would decide who is and isn't English? I don't remember there being a vote. I am of Irish descent, this is a fact, just as it is a fact that your son is of Scottish descent. If being of Scottish descent doesn't stop your son being English why should being of Irish descent stop me from being English? This looks increasingly like a double standard you are applying against people you are in broad political disagreement with. I repeat it is a process of accepting and acceptance. My son thinks he is English, does not claim some other heritage and is accepted as being English. The broad consideration legally for considering ethnic differences. Lammy claims to be an ethnic minority, you claim an Irish heritage. Where does that leave people who have an English heritage. Both you and Lammy claim you are part of that whole yet both claim not to be part of that whole as it suits. Would you take recourse to law if someone said I do not want to employ any Irish to you, the point is as you claim Irish heritage you could and you would be successful as part of an ethnic minority group. That is the law and it depends on ethnic differences. But your son is of Scottish heritage, this is a fact is it not? As a parent I'm assuming you know how parentage works. |
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