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Post by ratcliff on Aug 10, 2024 13:10:01 GMT
It's all about the narrative. Labour have set the narrative that rich pensioners are keeping everybody else down. The left blame the rich and successful, the right blame immigrants and benefits scroungers, and the centre fail to address structural problems so people adopt a left or right narrative. If I'm wrong why has Starmer not addressed that flooding 10 million extra people into the country requires building 10% more hospitals, GPs, dentists, housing, road capacity, reservoirs etc? Oh, I totally agree with your third paragraph. You only have to read this forum to know that everything is the fault of migrants and benefits scroungers, but then in your fourth paragraph you do exactly that! 🫠 I'm not really quite sure what you were looking for the PM to achieve in one month in office, but there are plans for housebuilding (whether it works or not is to be seen) and an offer to junior doctors to end the strike. I agree there's also a cut in the investment in roads and hospitals, so it's swings and roundabouts here. Give me a 22% pay rise and I promise (cross my heart hope to die) that I won't go on strike this year or demand another monster pay rise undr threat of striking next year |
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Post by witchfinder on Aug 10, 2024 13:35:15 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors.
Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors.
Its not simply a matter of pay is it ?
As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen.
The offer as made by the government puts right a lot of the real terms loss of pay, and it is spread over 2 years, and it will go some way towards addressing the shortage of junior doctors.
For those that criticise, I say WHATS THE ALTERNATIVE ?
The Conservative governments way of holding a gun to junior doctors heads and saying "No no no" and refusing to negotiate got us nowhere, and in the end would have further contributed to the deterioration of our NHS.
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Post by Bentley on Aug 10, 2024 13:46:32 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors. Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors. Its not simply a matter of pay is it ? As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen. The offer as made by the government puts right a lot of the real terms loss of pay, and it is spread over 2 years, and it will go some way towards addressing the shortage of junior doctors. For those that criticise, I say WHATS THE ALTERNATIVE ? The Conservative governments way of holding a gun to junior doctors heads and saying "No no no" and refusing to negotiate got us nowhere, and in the end would have further contributed to the deterioration of our NHS. If you think that the rest of the NHS isn’t going to demand comparable wage rises and that it won’t spread to other public sector workers then you are living in a dream world. Reeves can’t give a section of comparatively well paid public sector workers a huge pay rise and expect others to not want the same. |
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Post by see2 on Aug 10, 2024 13:59:36 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors. Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors. Its not simply a matter of pay is it ? As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen. The offer as made by the government puts right a lot of the real terms loss of pay, and it is spread over 2 years, and it will go some way towards addressing the shortage of junior doctors. For those that criticise, I say WHATS THE ALTERNATIVE ? The Conservative governments way of holding a gun to junior doctors heads and saying "No no no" and refusing to negotiate got us nowhere, and in the end would have further contributed to the deterioration of our NHS. Agreed ^^. It is also a part of putting the economy right because of the disruption in the NHS caused by the Tory approach to the NHS, by stopping the continuation of the typical Tory 'financial attacks' on the NHS. Considering that UK doctors pay doesn't even come into the top ten payments to Doctors pay in ten other countries, then Junior Doctors are no doubt amongst the lowest paid around the world. |
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Post by witchfinder on Aug 10, 2024 14:07:50 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors. Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors. Its not simply a matter of pay is it ? As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen. The offer as made by the government puts right a lot of the real terms loss of pay, and it is spread over 2 years, and it will go some way towards addressing the shortage of junior doctors. For those that criticise, I say WHATS THE ALTERNATIVE ? The Conservative governments way of holding a gun to junior doctors heads and saying "No no no" and refusing to negotiate got us nowhere, and in the end would have further contributed to the deterioration of our NHS. If you think that the rest of the NHS isn’t going to demand comparable wage rises and that it won’t spread to other public sector workers then you are living in a dream world. Reeves can’t give a section of comparatively well paid public sector workers a huge pay rise and expect others to not want the same. Its not a question of simply giving over-inflation pay rises, its a question of Real Terms cuts to the salaries of people doing essential work. What the junior doctors are asking for is Restoration of lost pay In 2010 David Cameron said that he would not cut the NHS, and not only did he cut NHS funding, he also set out on a programme of cutting the pay of NHS workers. We cannot do without the NHS, the private sector is an alternative for the wealthy and better off, but even the private sector cannot do everything that our NHS provides, including major trauma centres and A&E departments. If our GP's do actually have a real and genuine case for better funding due to lost funding during the Conservative administration, then we will have to find that funding, and some unpleasant choices will have to be made, such as ending free pescriptions for over 60s. I am sceptical of the GPs claims, they are self employed, most operate their GP Centres like businesses, GP's rely on NHS work, but they are not employed by the NHS, they also have alternative ways of supplementing their income from the NHS, including private work and they are increasingly charging for procedures which were once free. |
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Post by Bentley on Aug 10, 2024 14:12:27 GMT
If you think that the rest of the NHS isn’t going to demand comparable wage rises and that it won’t spread to other public sector workers then you are living in a dream world. Reeves can’t give a section of comparatively well paid public sector workers a huge pay rise and expect others to not want the same. Its not a question of simply giving over-inflation pay rises, its a question of Real Terms cuts to the salaries of people doing essential work. What the junior doctors are asking for is Restoration of lost pay In 2010 David Cameron said that he would not cut the NHS, and not only did he cut NHS funding, he also set out on a programme of cutting the pay of NHS workers. We cannot do without the NHS, the private sector is an alternative for the wealthy and better off, but even the private sector cannot do everything that our NHS provides, including major trauma centres and A&E departments. If our GP's do actually have a real and genuine case for better funding due to lost funding during the Conservative administration, then we will have to find that funding, and some unpleasant choices will have to be made, such as ending free pescriptions for over 60s. I am sceptical of the GPs claims, they are self employed, most operate their GP Centres like businesses, GP's rely on NHS work, but they are not employed by the NHS, they also have alternative ways of supplementing their income from the NHS, including private work and they are increasingly charging for procedures which were once free. Just verbiage and diversion .^ The reality is that this huge pay rise will be noted by other public sector workers who will want the same and for the same reasons. Reeves has opened up a can of worms which is highly likely to lead to a series of disputes . |
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Post by wassock on Aug 10, 2024 14:39:11 GMT
If you think that the rest of the NHS isn’t going to demand comparable wage rises and that it won’t spread to other public sector workers then you are living in a dream world. Reeves can’t give a section of comparatively well paid public sector workers a huge pay rise and expect others to not want the same. Its not a question of simply giving over-inflation pay rises, its a question of Real Terms cuts to the salaries of people doing essential work. What the junior doctors are asking for is Restoration of lost pay In 2010 David Cameron said that he would not cut the NHS, and not only did he cut NHS funding, he also set out on a programme of cutting the pay of NHS workers. We cannot do without the NHS, the private sector is an alternative for the wealthy and better off, but even the private sector cannot do everything that our NHS provides, including major trauma centres and A&E departments. If our GP's do actually have a real and genuine case for better funding due to lost funding during the Conservative administration, then we will have to find that funding, and some unpleasant choices will have to be made, such as ending free pescriptions for over 60s. I am sceptical of the GPs claims, they are self employed, most operate their GP Centres like businesses, GP's rely on NHS work, but they are not employed by the NHS, they also have alternative ways of supplementing their income from the NHS, including private work and they are increasingly charging for procedures which were once free. Why does some believe greater funding creates greater results? If we take the European member states, what are their funding levels compared to healthcare delivered ranking? |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 10, 2024 16:46:01 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors. Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors. Its not simply a matter of pay is it ? As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen.
There is no vacancy rate - places for Junior Doctors are oversubscribed. |
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Post by witchfinder on Aug 11, 2024 11:05:36 GMT
( British Medical Journal ) April 2024
. At present, the NHS simply does not have enough staff to deliver on its goals and commitments: it has fewer doctors, nurses, and managers than peer countries. By June 2023, there were over 125 500 vacancies in hospital and community health services in England.2 Over 1 in 10 nursing posts were unfilled, with mental health and community nursing especially affected.
the NHS is currently short of nearly 11,000 doctors (a 7.2% vacancy rate). The vacancy rate in clinical professional roles is compounded by difficulties in recruiting and retaining high quality staff in other roles, including administrative, managerial, scientific, and technical staff, as well as estates and ancillary staff. These groups make up nearly half of the workforce and are essential to the NHS
___________________________________________________________
There is a crisis in our NHS which had been completely ignored by the last government, they buried their head in the sand and pretended there was no crisis.
You cannot employ well over 100,000 staff including 11,000 doctors by "moving the furniture around" or moving funding from one place to another.
I want THIS government to sort out our NHS, but I know its going to cost, but the first priority is the waiting lists, which have soared and soared ( as they always do under the Conservatives ). Sorting out the waiting lists is number 1 on the list of things to put right, but it is going to cost.
This Autumn we ARE going to see both a squeeze on spending and tax rises, possibly CGT and possibly Inheritence Tax and perhaps raids on mega profits of petro-chemical / energy companies.
You cannot fix what needs to be fixed without money, and the British public wont accept the alternative, which is a second rate NHS, slowly deteriorating.
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Post by thomas on Aug 11, 2024 11:27:22 GMT
( British Medical Journal ) April 2024 . At present, the NHS simply does not have enough staff to deliver on its goals and commitments: it has fewer doctors, nurses, and managers than peer countries. By June 2023, there were over 125 500 vacancies in hospital and community health services in England.2 Over 1 in 10 nursing posts were unfilled, with mental health and community nursing especially affected. the NHS is currently short of nearly 11,000 doctors (a 7.2% vacancy rate). The vacancy rate in clinical professional roles is compounded by difficulties in recruiting and retaining high quality staff in other roles, including administrative, managerial, scientific, and technical staff, as well as estates and ancillary staff. These groups make up nearly half of the workforce and are essential to the NHS ___________________________________________________________ There is a crisis in our NHS which had been completely ignored by the last government, they buried their head in the sand and pretended there was no crisis. You cannot employ well over 100,000 staff including 11,000 doctors by "moving the furniture around" or moving funding from one place to another. I want THIS government to sort out our NHS, but I know its going to cost, but the first priority is the waiting lists, which have soared and soared ( as they always do under the Conservatives ). Sorting out the waiting lists is number 1 on the list of things to put right, but it is going to cost. This Autumn we ARE going to see both a squeeze on spending and tax rises, possibly CGT and possibly Inheritence Tax and perhaps raids on mega profits of petro-chemical / energy companies. You cannot fix what needs to be fixed without money, and the British public wont accept the alternative, which is a second rate NHS, slowly deteriorating. tax and spend , while throwing money at problems , the labour way. why haven't labour fixed the welsh nhs , which they have run unsuccessfully for a quarter of a century sid? Wales Ambulance delays: Mum died while waiting 13 hours for help from the Welsh Labour run NHS
Starmer says he has the ideas to fix the NHS - why haven't they started years ago in Wales?
Welsh NHS was overseen by the new First Minister Eluned Morgan www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clynn73ydd2o |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 11, 2024 16:18:22 GMT
( British Medical Journal ) April 2024 . At present, the NHS simply does not have enough staff to deliver on its goals and commitments: it has fewer doctors, nurses, and managers than peer countries. By June 2023, there were over 125 500 vacancies in hospital and community health services in England.2 Over 1 in 10 nursing posts were unfilled, with mental health and community nursing especially affected. the NHS is currently short of nearly 11,000 doctors (a 7.2% vacancy rate). The vacancy rate in clinical professional roles is compounded by difficulties in recruiting and retaining high quality staff in other roles, including administrative, managerial, scientific, and technical staff, as well as estates and ancillary staff. These groups make up nearly half of the workforce and are essential to the NHS ___________________________________________________________ There is a crisis in our NHS which had been completely ignored by the last government, they buried their head in the sand and pretended there was no crisis. You cannot employ well over 100,000 staff including 11,000 doctors by "moving the furniture around" or moving funding from one place to another. I want THIS government to sort out our NHS, but I know its going to cost, but the first priority is the waiting lists, which have soared and soared ( as they always do under the Conservatives ). Sorting out the waiting lists is number 1 on the list of things to put right, but it is going to cost. This Autumn we ARE going to see both a squeeze on spending and tax rises, possibly CGT and possibly Inheritence Tax and perhaps raids on mega profits of petro-chemical / energy companies. You cannot fix what needs to be fixed without money, and the British public wont accept the alternative, which is a second rate NHS, slowly deteriorating. We are not short of junior doctors. There is a set number of training places for them and currently theses places are oversubscribed. |
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Post by see2 on Aug 11, 2024 17:32:04 GMT
In the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power, the pay freezes plus the below inflation pay increases have resulted in a Real Terms pay cut of over one third for junior doctors. Whilst I personally believe that asking for a 30% pay increase is not acceptable, or reasonable, I do understand the argument of the Junior Doctors. Its not simply a matter of pay is it ? As pay has gone down, and terms and conditions have worsened, the vaccany rate of Junior Doctors posts has steadily risen.
There is no vacancy rate - places for Junior Doctors are oversubscribed. Does that indicate a reduction in places for Junior Doctors? |
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Post by see2 on Aug 11, 2024 17:33:45 GMT
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 11, 2024 17:33:57 GMT
There is no vacancy rate - places for Junior Doctors are oversubscribed. Does that indicate a reduction in places for Junior Doctors? There has been no reduction - in fact they are trying to open extra slots to employ more.. |
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Post by see2 on Aug 11, 2024 17:36:25 GMT
Does that indicate a reduction in places for Junior Doctors? There has been no reduction - in fact they are trying to open extra slots to employ more.. You mean the NHS has too many but still couldn't provide a decent service? |
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