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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 16:38:35 GMT
A sensible centre right party led by a serious grown up focusing on voters real world concerns like the economy, job security, the NHS and education would be most welcome for me personally and keep Labour on their toes. A more extreme version of the punch and judy infighting rabble we saw before focusing on culture war fringe issues and crackpot money burning schemes like Rwanda isn't going to get the Conservatives back into power. So now you accept that a Tory government that was fitter to the right than the last could work . No, I think a sensible centre right government focusing on voters priorties could work. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 25, 2024 16:40:00 GMT
I repeat. Do you actually read the guff you post or just post random replies that have nothing to do with the post you replied to? You commented on the irony of me telling someone they are in denial. Surely the only way that could be ironic is if I was in denial about something? And you asked “ What am I in denial about?“ when you either knew that I never claimed you was in denial or lied to divert the conversation. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 16:40:59 GMT
You commented on the irony of me telling someone they are in denial. Surely the only way that could be ironic is if I was in denial about something? And you asked “ What am I in denial about?“ when you either knew that I never claimed you was in denial or lied to divert the conversation. So how could me saying someone was in denial be ironic? |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 25, 2024 16:41:54 GMT
So now you accept that a Tory government that was fitter to the right than the last could work . No, I think a sensible centre right government focusing on voters priorties could work. You were told that the previous Tory government was too left wing . Now you say that a centre right government would work . Make your mind up . |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 25, 2024 16:43:32 GMT
And you asked “ What am I in denial about?“ when you either knew that I never claimed you was in denial or lied to divert the conversation. So how could me saying someone was in denial be ironic? Are you in denial? |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 25, 2024 16:43:36 GMT
They lost because they were too left-wing and their core support either stayed home or voted Reform. The question is whether anyone is able to regain the lost trust of those voters. After years of talking right-wing yet lurching ever further left-wing in their policies will anyone give them another chance. , reaching for the "they weren't right wing enough" comfort blanket. They lost 5 seats to the right of them and hundreds to the left. Take for example the blue wall seats they lost to the Lib Dems, do you think people in those constituencies voted Lib Dem because they thought they were more right wing than the Tories? Are you prepared to entertain the possibility that the state of the economy, public services, Tory incompetence and corruption might have been factors in their defeat? LOL - it's not denial, its research into what happened to the core Tory vote. Basic research that you seem to have failed to carry out. Labour and the LibDems did not increase their vote with disgruntled Tories flocking to them - that is fantasy (they did not increase their vote share at all). The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's where they would preach Conservative values and polices yet enact liberal left polices for the country that they, quite understandably, failed to vote for them this time. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 16:49:23 GMT
I think this is an example of the denial I was talking about, reaching for the "they weren't right wing enough" comfort blanket. They lost 5 seats to the right of them and hundreds to the left. Take for example the blue wall seats they lost to the Lib Dems, do you think people in those constituencies voted Lib Dem because they thought they were more right wing than the Tories? Are you prepared to entertain the possibility that the state of the economy, public services, Tory incompetence and corruption might have been factors in their defeat? LOL - it's not denial, its research into what happened to the core Tory vote. Basic research that you seem to have failed to carry out. Labour and the LibDems did not increase their vote with disgruntled Tories flocking to them - that is fantasy (they did not increase their vote share at all). The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's where they would preach Conservative values and polices yet enact liberal left polices for the country that they, quite understandably, failed to vote for them this time. Let's start with the seats the Tories lost to the Lib Dems, do you think that people who voted Lib Dem did so believing they were more right wing than the Tories? "The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's" Nothing to do with Liz Truss putting people's mortgages up, the cost of living crisis, crumbling public services, Tory incompetence and corruption? |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 16:50:05 GMT
No, I think a sensible centre right government focusing on voters priorties could work. You were told that the previous Tory government was too left wing . Now you say that a centre right government would work . Make your mind up . What I was told and what I think are two different things. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 25, 2024 16:53:16 GMT
You were told that the previous Tory government was too left wing . Now you say that a centre right government would work . Make your mind up . What I was told and what I think are two different things. No it wasn’t . If the previous government was too left wing to have the support of Tory voters then a future Tory government would need to be more right wing. You seem to be in denial |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 25, 2024 17:05:11 GMT
LOL - it's not denial, its research into what happened to the core Tory vote. Basic research that you seem to have failed to carry out. Labour and the LibDems did not increase their vote with disgruntled Tories flocking to them - that is fantasy (they did not increase their vote share at all). The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's where they would preach Conservative values and polices yet enact liberal left polices for the country that they, quite understandably, failed to vote for them this time. Let's start with the seats the Tories lost to the Lib Dems, do you think that people who voted Lib Dem did so believing they were more right wing than the Tories? "The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's" Nothing to do with Liz Truss putting people's mortgages up, the cost of living crisis, crumbling public services, Tory incompetence and corruption? Oh do please put your politicised ranting into the skip. Stick to facts - the research by YouGov shows that of the Tories 2019 support, in 2024 they lost 5% to Labour, 3% to the LibDems and 19% voted Reform or stayed at home. Your idea that had the Tories been more left wing they would not have lost so much support is one of the most bonkers ideas I have seen on this forum for many a long day. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 17:22:34 GMT
Let's start with the seats the Tories lost to the Lib Dems, do you think that people who voted Lib Dem did so believing they were more right wing than the Tories? "The Tory core vote were so disgusted with the performance of the Tory Government and MP's" Nothing to do with Liz Truss putting people's mortgages up, the cost of living crisis, crumbling public services, Tory incompetence and corruption? Oh do please put your politicised ranting into the skip. Stick to facts - the research by YouGov shows that of the Tories 2019 support, in 2024 they lost 5% to Labour, 3% to the LibDems and 19% voted Reform or stayed at home. Your idea that had the Tories been more left wing they would not have lost so much support is one of the most bonkers ideas I have seen on this forum for many a long day. So what about the other 73%? And where is your evidence that any of the votes they lost in any direction had nothing to do with the factors I listed? In order to win a majority of 1 at the next GE the Tories are going to have to pull off a record breaking swing, they aren't going to do that just by appealing to their base. I'm not saying that they would have not lost so much support if they had been more left wing, I think they were screwed regardless for the reasons I've already listed. I'm saying that a more right version of the clown car that just suffered a record defeat isn't going to get them back into power. A little humility and actually listening to voters concerns like Starmer did when he first became Labour leader would be a good start. People laughed when he did those virtual town halls, whose laughing now? |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 25, 2024 17:28:23 GMT
It strikes me that the Conservatives aren't yet ready to have a proper, unflinching reflection on why they lost the election. They went through a similar process after 97. They lost because they were too left-wing and their core support either stayed home or voted Reform. The question is whether anyone is able to regain the lost trust of those voters. After years of talking right-wing yet lurching ever further left-wing in their policies will anyone give them another chance. They lost because there was way too much rhetoric about leaving the ECHR - the brainchild of the best Conservative Leader ever. People who have REAL Conservative values do not want to see us out of the ECHR. Right-Wing reactionaries following dog-whistle extremist politics want us out of the ECHR. Thankfully there's not enough of them to propel a party to power. All The Best |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 25, 2024 17:39:50 GMT
Oh do please put your politicised ranting into the skip. Stick to facts - the research by YouGov shows that of the Tories 2019 support, in 2024 they lost 5% to Labour, 3% to the LibDems and 19% voted Reform or stayed at home. Your idea that had the Tories been more left wing they would not have lost so much support is one of the most bonkers ideas I have seen on this forum for many a long day. So what about the other 73%? And where is your evidence that any of the votes they lost in any direction had nothing to do with the factors I listed? You honestly expect us to believe that losing just 8% of their vote to Labour/libDem is an indication that their vote collapsed because they were not left-wing enough? Their base gave them an 80 seat majority at the 2019 election - they have not gone away. Exactly - they failed to listen (and act) on their voters concerns. For example their voters did not want record immigration, taxation and Public Spending - unless they start to listen and put into place policies that reflect those wishes they will be dead for a generation. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 25, 2024 17:41:26 GMT
They lost because they were too left-wing and their core support either stayed home or voted Reform. The question is whether anyone is able to regain the lost trust of those voters. After years of talking right-wing yet lurching ever further left-wing in their policies will anyone give them another chance. They lost because there was way too much rhetoric about leaving the ECHR - the brainchild of the best Conservative Leader ever. People who have REAL Conservative values do not want to see us out of the ECHR. Right-Wing reactionaries following dog-whistle extremist politics want us out of the ECHR. Thankfully there's not enough of them to propel a party to power. All The Best the nonsense over the ECHR was because they had failed on immigration - whether we are in the ECHR is neither here nor there. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 25, 2024 17:48:24 GMT
So what about the other 73%? And where is your evidence that any of the votes they lost in any direction had nothing to do with the factors I listed? You honestly expect us to believe that losing just 8% of their vote to Labour/libDem is an indication that their vote collapsed because they were not left-wing enough? Their base gave them an 80 seat majority at the 2019 election - they have not gone away. Exactly - they failed to listen (and act) on their voters concerns. For example their voters did not want record immigration, taxation and Public Spending - unless they start to listen and put into place policies that reflect those wishes they will be dead for a generation. "You honestly expect us to believe that losing just 8% of their vote to Labour/libDem is an indication that their vote collapsed because they were not left-wing enough?" I never said that. "Their base gave them an 80 seat majority at the 2019 election - they have not gone away" The red wall is not the Tory base. "For example their voters did not want record immigration, taxation and Public Spending" But they absolutely lapped up Liz Truss putting people's mortgages up, the cost of living crisis, crumbling (literally in some cases) schools and NHS, partygate and Tory incompetence and corruption? |
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