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Post by Dogburger on May 26, 2024 19:56:46 GMT
My son teaches at a private school and I have talked to him about this . The vast majority of kids are from families who just prioritise their children's education over other spending and though some could be described as wealthy its not a given .
Some will fall out if it does actually become un-affordable though some schools are already looking to save money for parents by not offering some services , bigger classes and as the boy says less money for teachers .
That will make them less attractive to the rich list pupils and we will probably end up with two/three tier private schools at the low end of private education .
One things for sure its not going to improve the state education system
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Post by Pacifico on May 26, 2024 21:54:29 GMT
The administration cannot have been that lamentable - pupil numbers in private schools have risen 10% since 2010. That is doubtful insofar as the one that has closed is concerned, since a Labour policy not even implemented yet cannot yet have done any fiscal damage. Unless it has resulted in the school raising fees before it had to. I suspect it has rather more to do with the cost of living crisis presided over by your lot The numbers applying to private schools have fallen - what on earth did you expect the effect of this policy to be?..  Surely you didn't believe the Labour Party when they told you that schools would absorb these extra costs? |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2024 6:25:40 GMT
That is doubtful insofar as the one that has closed is concerned, since a Labour policy not even implemented yet cannot yet have done any fiscal damage. Unless it has resulted in the school raising fees before it had to. I suspect it has rather more to do with the cost of living crisis presided over by your lot The numbers applying to private schools have fallen - what on earth did you expect the effect of this policy to be?.. Surely you didn't believe the Labour Party when they told you that schools would absorb these extra costs? Based upon the figures provided I pointed out that a maximum extra cost to the state of £300 million by a policy that will save £1.6 billion is a net gain of an additional £1.3 billion to spend on education. And almost all of it paid by those who can afford to. |
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Post by wapentake on May 27, 2024 6:39:11 GMT
We should never have let the system of state grammar,technical and secondary school disappear where people were educated and able to excel if they worked and find a place according to that ability.
I don’t expect though for what are not charities at all to receive tax breaks,if you want to have your kids privately educated you’ll have to pay the going rate.
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Post by Handyman on May 27, 2024 6:56:06 GMT
My son teaches at a private school and I have talked to him about this . The vast majority of kids are from families who just prioritise their children's education over other spending and though some could be described as wealthy its not a given . Some will fall out if it does actually become un-affordable though some schools are already looking to save money for parents by not offering some services , bigger classes and as the boy says less money for teachers . That will make them less attractive to the rich list pupils and we will probably end up with two/three tier private schools at the low end of private education . One things for sure its not going to improve the state education system IMHO some of the Charity funded Private Schools will struggle to stay open if they have to pay VAT and may well have to reduce the number of Pupils or perhaps close, the larger Boarding Schools such Eton or Harrow will probably reduce or stop offering free Bursaries places to gifted Pupils whose parents cannot afford the fees. Yes Parents who work the clock round to put their child into a Private School will probably not be able to pay the Fees if they go up too much, from what I can gather more parents are teaching their kids at home as the don't think their local State Schools would give them a good enough education. Some parents do sell up and move to another area to get their children into the better performing State Schools |
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2024 7:01:42 GMT
The numbers applying to private schools have fallen - what on earth did you expect the effect of this policy to be?.. Surely you didn't believe the Labour Party when they told you that schools would absorb these extra costs? Based upon the figures provided I pointed out that a maximum extra cost to the state of £300 million by a policy that will save £1.6 billion is a net gain of an additional £1.3 billion to spend on education. And almost all of it paid by those who can afford to. Your £1.6 Billion is based on the idea that behavior does not change and numbers continue at the same level they are now and simply pay the extra 20%. But as we have seen, that belief is faulty and anyone serious knows that tax proposals like this never raise as much money in reality as expected when planned. The only tax rises that actually raise anywhere near their forecast amount are VAT and Income Tax - all other estimates prove to be very wide of the mark. A survey by Saltus found that 26 per cent of children would have to be removed from their independent school in the event that VAT was imposed. This would amount to an additional 144,103 children potentially entering the state school system. At a cost of £7,690 per pupil, according to government figures, this would mean a £1.1 billion cost to the Treasury as a result of the policy.Under Labour Party estimates, the policy would raise £1.7 billion. In this scenario, 65 per cent of revenue would be lost as a result of an increase in children entering state schools.And this is based on the basic cost of schooling in the State sector - once the State has to provide the (expensive) places for Special needs kids who are currently farmed out to the private sector then this windfall of £1.6 Billion is going to be as elusive as a conservative in the present Government. |
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Post by Red Rackham on May 27, 2024 9:06:52 GMT
That's doing very well to blame Labour for something that hasn't happened yet. Can't be anything to do with the last 10 years of lamentable Tory administration, can it? The effects of Starmers private school VAT grab are already being felt. The school mentioned in the OP said it will close at the end of this term, not as a result of Tory policy over the past ten years, but as a direct result of Starmers VAT policy. |
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Post by Dogburger on May 27, 2024 9:12:40 GMT
My son teaches at a private school and I have talked to him about this . The vast majority of kids are from families who just prioritise their children's education over other spending and though some could be described as wealthy its not a given . Some will fall out if it does actually become un-affordable though some schools are already looking to save money for parents by not offering some services , bigger classes and as the boy says less money for teachers . That will make them less attractive to the rich list pupils and we will probably end up with two/three tier private schools at the low end of private education . One things for sure its not going to improve the state education system IMHO some of the Charity funded Private Schools will struggle to stay open if they have to pay VAT and may well have to reduce the number of Pupils or perhaps close, the larger Boarding Schools such Eton or Harrow will probably reduce or stop offering free Bursaries places to gifted Pupils whose parents cannot afford the fees. Yes Parents who work the clock round to put their child into a Private School will probably not be able to pay the Fees if they go up too much, from what I can gather more parents are teaching their kids at home as the don't think their local State Schools would give them a good enough education. Some parents do sell up and move to another area to get their children into the better performing State Schools A point to consider . Private schools having had the charitable status removed will no longer have to comply to the rules that gave them charitable status .That being bursaries or free places to those who show potential but can't afford it . Labour are in effect removing children from working class families from an elite education . It wont cover all the loss from having to pay VAT but will certainly be one of the things that contribute to it . One in five pupils at my sons school are currently on Bursaries or scholarships which are obviously subsidised by those that do pay . There will be some book keeping to do before we know exactly how this will affect fees and the number of children moving to state education . Not sure how moving house gets you into better schools . I thought the last Labour government had the freedom of choice ,being able to apply to schools from outside your area put a stop to all that . Ive heard locally that parents can't get their kids into the local school as it's full up with kids from other areas . |
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Post by Equivocal on May 27, 2024 9:21:06 GMT
We should never have let the system of state grammar,technical and secondary school disappear where people were educated and able to excel if they worked and find a place according to that ability. I don’t expect though for what are not charities at all to receive tax breaks,if you want to have your kids privately educated you’ll have to pay the going rate. I think it's fair enough to tax private schools on their profits and agree they (among other institutions) should not qualify as charities. That said, charging VAT on the provision of education doesn't seem right to me. |
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Post by Bentley on May 27, 2024 9:27:03 GMT
That’s just what we need . Less well educated private school pupils and more cut and paste monkeys .
Lefties are rubbing their little hands with glee .
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Post by Handyman on May 27, 2024 10:00:09 GMT
IMHO some of the Charity funded Private Schools will struggle to stay open if they have to pay VAT and may well have to reduce the number of Pupils or perhaps close, the larger Boarding Schools such Eton or Harrow will probably reduce or stop offering free Bursaries places to gifted Pupils whose parents cannot afford the fees. Yes Parents who work the clock round to put their child into a Private School will probably not be able to pay the Fees if they go up too much, from what I can gather more parents are teaching their kids at home as the don't think their local State Schools would give them a good enough education. Some parents do sell up and move to another area to get their children into the better performing State Schools A point to consider . Private schools having had the charitable status removed will no longer have to comply to the rules that gave them charitable status .That being bursaries or free places to those who show potential but can't afford it . Labour are in effect removing children from working class families from an elite education . It wont cover all the loss from having to pay VAT but will certainly be one of the things that contribute to it . One in five pupils at my sons school are currently on Bursaries or scholarships which are obviously subsidised by those that do pay . There will be some book keeping to do before we know exactly how this will affect fees and the number of children moving to state education . Not sure how moving house gets you into better schools . I thought the last Labour government had the freedom of choice ,being able to apply to schools from outside your area put a stop to all that . Ive heard locally that parents can't get their kids into the local school as it's full up with kids from other areas . Wife and I about 35 years moved from one London Borough Islington because the local schools were not good failing their pupils low pass rates, we moved to another where the schools performed much better |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2024 11:37:37 GMT
Based upon the figures provided I pointed out that a maximum extra cost to the state of £300 million by a policy that will save £1.6 billion is a net gain of an additional £1.3 billion to spend on education. And almost all of it paid by those who can afford to. Your £1.6 Billion is based on the idea that behavior does not change and numbers continue at the same level they are now and simply pay the extra 20%. But as we have seen, that belief is faulty and anyone serious knows that tax proposals like this never raise as much money in reality as expected when planned. The only tax rises that actually raise anywhere near their forecast amount are VAT and Income Tax - all other estimates prove to be very wide of the mark. A survey by Saltus found that 26 per cent of children would have to be removed from their independent school in the event that VAT was imposed. This would amount to an additional 144,103 children potentially entering the state school system. At a cost of £7,690 per pupil, according to government figures, this would mean a £1.1 billion cost to the Treasury as a result of the policy.Under Labour Party estimates, the policy would raise £1.7 billion. In this scenario, 65 per cent of revenue would be lost as a result of an increase in children entering state schools.And this is based on the basic cost of schooling in the State sector - once the State has to provide the (expensive) places for Special needs kids who are currently farmed out to the private sector then this windfall of £1.6 Billion is going to be as elusive as a conservative in the present Government. Saltus? An organisation that exists and dedicates itself to serving the interests of the wealthy? Sorry I am not convinced, lol. Comes under the category of "they would say that, wouldn't they?" I am certain that nowhere near that many will leave the private sector. If they do - and you can prove it - you may change my username to Hugh Jarse |
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2024 11:56:09 GMT
Your £1.6 Billion is based on the idea that behavior does not change and numbers continue at the same level they are now and simply pay the extra 20%. But as we have seen, that belief is faulty and anyone serious knows that tax proposals like this never raise as much money in reality as expected when planned. The only tax rises that actually raise anywhere near their forecast amount are VAT and Income Tax - all other estimates prove to be very wide of the mark. A survey by Saltus found that 26 per cent of children would have to be removed from their independent school in the event that VAT was imposed. This would amount to an additional 144,103 children potentially entering the state school system. At a cost of £7,690 per pupil, according to government figures, this would mean a £1.1 billion cost to the Treasury as a result of the policy.Under Labour Party estimates, the policy would raise £1.7 billion. In this scenario, 65 per cent of revenue would be lost as a result of an increase in children entering state schools.And this is based on the basic cost of schooling in the State sector - once the State has to provide the (expensive) places for Special needs kids who are currently farmed out to the private sector then this windfall of £1.6 Billion is going to be as elusive as a conservative in the present Government. Saltus? An organisation that exists and dedicates itself to serving the interests of the wealthy? Sorry I am not convinced, lol. Comes under the category of "they would say that, wouldn't they?" I am certain that nowhere near that many will leave the private sector. If they do - and you can prove it - you may change my username to Hugh Jarse Well you can shoot the messenger is you like, but the reality is that taxation changes behaviour. We even have swathes of taxation based on that simple principle. |
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Post by ratcliff on May 27, 2024 12:28:39 GMT
IMHO the Politics of envy, It would be better to try bring State Schools up the same standard of education as some of the private and charitable schools, sadly many of the pupils leaving State Schools have poor educational standards which makes it difficult for them to find work when they leave That tired old canard. Yawn. I dont envy the poor blighters having to go to these schools one single jot. Because it isolates them from many normal kids in many cases. And what do you think removing tax breaks funded by the rest of us is designed to do other than redirect that money into state education improvements? Why should tax breaks be used to subsidise the expensive educations of the children of the better off, when the money is so more desperately needed in other areas of the education system? Parents who decide to pay to send their kid to private schools do not get a refund on the portion of their taxes that is technically ''allocated'' for said kid's state education . They have paid for something thy aren't using, that's no tax break If kid is moved into the state sector - their tax allocation is being used for their entitlement to state education - that mean less money available for the whole. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2024 14:23:53 GMT
Saltus? An organisation that exists and dedicates itself to serving the interests of the wealthy? Sorry I am not convinced, lol. Comes under the category of "they would say that, wouldn't they?" I am certain that nowhere near that many will leave the private sector. If they do - and you can prove it - you may change my username to Hugh Jarse Well you can shoot the messenger is you like, but the reality is that taxation changes behaviour. We even have swathes of taxation based on that simple principle. But it is not going to change the behaviour of those using private schools by anything like the degree self interested groups would try to have us believe it will. Because the fact is most kids going to private school are not going there because parents are making huge sacrifices just to pay for it. There might well be a few such. But most will simply pay the extra if they have to. That they don't want to have to is why they are trying to pretend otherwise. A bit like Andrew Lloyd Webber claiming before 1997 that if Labour got in he'd leave the country. Of course he never did. Reality is most parents paying for private schools are paying for an entrée for their kids into the elites, useful contacts, and avoidance of any need to associate with the hoi polloi. They are not going to give that up for the sake of a bit of VAT. And such elitism should not be subsidised by tax breaks when the money is so pressingly needed elsewhere. Because when it comes to groups in society struggling for lack of resources, private school pupils do not feature highly amongst them. |
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