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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 10:27:34 GMT
As a bookend to the earlier thread on the Third Reich, is it appropriate to ask whether the United States is also a cultural desert? Especially since it seems to be an outcome of Brexit, if not an actual objective, that Britain should cast off from its European moorings and align itself more closely with the USA, not just economically, but also politically, socially and culturally as well. Many of those who continue to support and promote Brexit appear to be very welcoming of such an outcome.
But how would we measure such a thing? Calculate the market value of all the paintings and sculptures in musuems and galleries, the amount spent on orchestras and opera companies, the value of all theatre and cinema tickets sold, or the amount invested by Hollywood in motion picture production each year? Well, we could, but what would that really tell us apart from the amount of money spent on cultural production and how that compares to, say, the amount spent on producing pick-up trucks each year?
There is one available metric which does not entail any financial considerations and that is to compare the national endowment of cultural artifacts and physical features that have been been awarded the status of Unesco World Heritage site.
On that basis, and restricting the choice to cultural as opposed to natural sites. The scorecard reads as follows:
USA: 12 EU: 387
If we widen the field to include the rest of Europe, including outliers like the UK and the FSU, the result becomes:
USA: 12 Europe: 467 In fairness, I should note that the USA is in first place when it comes to Natural Sites with 12. But as anyone who has visited the US and spent any time there will already know, it is not the works of man that are the principal attraction, but rather the works of nature. Any dissenting thoughts at this point, before we continue? |
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Post by buccaneer on Apr 12, 2024 10:33:37 GMT
What is the point of this thread?
Continental exceptionalism for something or other?
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 10:35:49 GMT
You presumably think the question is not appropriate. Can you explain why?
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Post by buccaneer on Apr 12, 2024 10:38:28 GMT
Can you explain why you cherry pick such a subject on human cultural sites rather than natural, or even why when it suits you lump alleged sovereign countries together and call them the EU for your little "scorecard"?
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 11:02:37 GMT
I selected 'cultural' sites rather than 'natural' ones since humans were responsible for creating the former but not the latter, except insofar as they may have assisted in their preservation. As for comparing the USA with the EU, as a rule that is the comparison of choice on the part of Brexiteers who wish to denigrate the latter, usually on economic grounds. I thought it important to broaden the discussion to take account of cultural assets as well as financial.
Even if we were to focus on national endowments, rather than regional, the USA still comes off quite poorly given its size, wealth and general hegemony in the cultural realm. From the source listed above:
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 11:11:42 GMT
Another metric for consideration, the Nobel Prize for Literature.
USA: 13
Europe: 94
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Post by Bentley on Apr 12, 2024 11:38:29 GMT
Another metric for consideration, the Nobel Prize for Literature. USA: 13 Europe: 94 13 Nobel prizes for literature pretty much refutes the claim that the US is a cultural desert in itself . |
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 12:18:20 GMT
It's not a very impressive result for a population of over 300 million. The UK has 13 all by itself. France has 16.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 12, 2024 12:36:11 GMT
It's not a very impressive result for a population of over 300 million. The UK has 13 all by itself. France has 16. There’s difference between’ not a very impressive result’ and ‘ cultural desert’. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 12:39:08 GMT
Even deserts have occasional signs of life. They're called oases, but they don't prevent us from calling the Sahara a desert.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 12, 2024 13:47:38 GMT
Even deserts have occasional signs of life. They're called oases, but they don't prevent us from calling the Sahara a desert. I think you are calling the Serengeti a desert because it’s not a forest . |
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 14:19:56 GMT
Well, apart from some desultory and pedantic nit-picking there doesn't appear to be much opposition so far to the proposition that the United States is a cultural desert, in comparison to Europe. So let's proceed further and hope that something more substantial may emerge, in particular from those dedicated Brexiteers and other committed Atlanticists for whom this is, or should be, an important question that merits serious attention as a key element in their world-view.
Longer-term members, especially those who were active on the old forum, may recall that I have been very keen on citing Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950. Murray, it may be recalled is an American political scientist who co-authored 'The Bell Curve'.
His book includes a set of what he calls 'Inventories of Significant Figures' in the fields of literature, music, art, philosophy, and the sciences —some 4000 or so men and a few women from around the world, ranked according to their eminence. Since the present discussion relates to culture, we will pass over the sciences, in searching how many those significant figures in the cultural domain identified by Murray turn out to be American.
So here's the answer:
Significant figures in Western Art: 479, of which 25 are American
Significant figures in Western Literature: 835, including 55 Americans
Significant figures in Western Music: 522, with 14 Americans
Significant figures in Western Philosophy: 155, 4 Americans
Does any of this serve to refute the proposition that America is a cultural desert? I'd say probably not.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 12, 2024 14:26:41 GMT
Well, apart from some desultory and pedantic nit-picking there doesn't appear to be much opposition so far to the proposition that the United States is a cultural desert, in comparison to Europe. So let's proceed further and hope that something more substantial may emerge, in particular from those dedicated Brexiteers and other committed Atlanticists for whom this is, or should be, an important question that merits serious attention as a key element in their world-view. Longer-term members, especially those who were active on the old forum, may recall that I have been very keen on citing Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950. Murray, it may be recalled is an American political scientist who co-authored 'The Bell Curve'. His book includes a set of what he calls 'Inventories of Significant Figures' in the fields of literature, music, art, philosophy, and the sciences —some 4000 or so men and a few women from around the world, ranked according to their eminence. Since the present discussion relates to culture, we will pass over the sciences, in searching how many those significant figures in the cultural domain identified by Murray turn out to be American. So here's the answer: Significant figures in Western Art: 479, of which 25 are American Significant figures in Western Literature: 835, including 55 Americans Significant figures in Western Music: 522, with 14 Americans Significant figures in Western Philosophy: 155, 4 Americans Does any of this serve to refute the proposition that America is a cultural desert? I'd say probably not. So refuting your point is desultory not picking band lack of response is support? |
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Post by borchester on Apr 12, 2024 14:28:15 GMT
Dunno.
I once explained to an American friend that the US was artless, but full of energy and the new Rome, while the Old World was the home of art and philosophy and the new Athens. And she said Christ, you really are a pretentious bastard aren't you ?
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 12, 2024 14:42:50 GMT
I got a similar response when I remarked to my American boss that the British were resigned to playing the role of the Greeks in the new Imperium.
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