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Post by jeg er on Nov 3, 2022 11:25:50 GMT
b) the government was struggling to agree any sort of sensible deal that even vaguely matched the official leave manifesto There was no democratic way forward without a further democratic endoresement. The alternatives were an election or further referendum. For complex reasons the former was used and gave that clear way forward. what leave manifesto? |
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 11:30:23 GMT
You're the one denying events and the elected representatives basis of the UK democracy. The events were the uk had a referendum asking if we wanted to leave the EU in 2016 , and leave won. Remainers spent three years denying demcoracy with all the puerile sobbing arguments regurgitated over and over , but to no avail in the end.
Democracy won.
The end.
Democracy never officially lost, all the honest claims about the faults, lies etc. have not made one iota of difference to the outcome. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 11:32:07 GMT
I would accept that it was a meaningless suggestion . Just an attempt to make a banal statement appear profound . The reality is that there is always extremism in extreme positions . That is a very different reaction by yourself to the suggestion that there is extremism on the Left of politics. Does your very different reaction indicate a right-wing background to your reply ? Did you not read this ? “The reality is that there is always extremism in extreme positions”. Would you like me to walk you through this very simple concept that you appear to have trouble with? |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 11:32:45 GMT
The events were the uk had a referendum asking if we wanted to leave the EU in 2016 , and leave won. Remainers spent three years denying demcoracy with all the puerile sobbing arguments regurgitated over and over , but to no avail in the end.
Democracy won.
The end.
Democracy never officially lost, all the honest claims about the faults, lies etc. have not made one iota of difference to the outcome. I didnt say it did . Democracy won in the end thankfully , but between 2016 and 2019 , it was a close thing between the actions of the anti democratic remainers.
Thank god the majority of people are on the side of democracy , and only a few unable to accept it when they lose.
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 11:42:44 GMT
If the referendum had included a confirmation of what leave meant and people had voted for that, there would have been no room for debate... It did and there isn't: The government sent a leaflet to every household in the UK setting out exactly what leave meant: It meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. And remnants have lied about it ever since. There was no lie bigger lie than the oft repeated insinuation that all we have to do is to leave, after that it's all blue skies and sunshine. That's how misleadingly arrogant those who wanted Brexit were. It was somewhere near 2018 when suddenly we were introduced to another lie by those who voted for Brexit, "no one said it would be easy". Ha. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 11:43:50 GMT
b) the government was struggling to agree any sort of sensible deal that even vaguely matched the official leave manifesto There was no democratic way forward without a further democratic endoresement. The alternatives were an election or further referendum. For complex reasons the former was used and gave that clear way forward. what leave manifesto? The one that was distributed to every household? Can't find that right now but then there's this www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing.html Drill down and you'll see 'After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU.' Something they couldn't and still haven't delivered on. And by 2019 it was obvious they couldn't get close to that and still deliver all those promises on freedom from rule making in Brussels. Hence why MPs including one Boris Johnson voted down the then Brexit deal. |
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Post by jeg er on Nov 3, 2022 11:47:09 GMT
i dont remember a leave manifesto delivered around? I never received one. I remember the leaflet about the referendum from the government |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 3, 2022 11:50:49 GMT
Both Dan Hannan and Nigel Farage campaigned on the basis of not leaving the customs union or single market. There was no clear vision as to what leave meant, other than leaving the EU itself. The decision to leave the SM and CU was made by Teresa May long after Cameron had departed. Not at all - the decision to leave the SM and CU was made by Parliament. With regards to your point about people not knowing what they voted for - we had 2 General Elections before we actually left and in neither was there a majority to overthrow the result of the referendum. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 11:50:57 GMT
It did and there isn't: The government sent a leaflet to every household in the UK setting out exactly what leave meant: It meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. And remnants have lied about it ever since. There was no lie bigger lie than the oft repeated insinuation that all we have to do is to leave, after that it's all blue skies and sunshine. That's how misleadingly arrogant those who wanted Brexit were. It was somewhere near 2018 when suddenly we were introduced to another lie by those who voted for Brexit, "no one said it would be easy". Ha. you can try and spend the rest of eternity thinking up new excuses and running historical revision to attempt to justify overturning democracy , it does you no favours.
The rest of us know what happened.
Leave won fair and square.
Best to move on and try and champion rejoin , rather then crying over spilled milk . All you do is entrench division , and the sense of anti democracy and unwillingess to accept losing that we see in some remainers.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 11:52:06 GMT
“After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. Many countries around the world trade with the EU without accepting the supremacy of EU law.” Translation ..countries outside of the EU trade with the EU. We will trade on the same terms . Are the people who believed otherwise as stupid as the ones who didn’t read the small print when we voted to join ? |
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 11:55:49 GMT
Democracy never officially lost, all the honest claims about the faults, lies etc. have not made one iota of difference to the outcome. I didnt say it did . Democracy won in the end thankfully , but between 2016 and 2019 , it was a close thing between the actions of the anti democratic remainers.
Thank god the majority of people are on the side of democracy , and only a few unable to accept it when they lose.
I didn't say you did. Brexit individuals were in control of the country, they were never going to lose. There was not one moment when I thought the result would be overturned. And that was despite the fact that I very quickly after the referendum recognised that the Irish issue might be the Achilles Heel for Brexit. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 11:58:13 GMT
i dont remember a leave manifesto delivered around? I never received one. I remember the leaflet about the referendum from the government My recall is it was with the government and remain ones thereby saving on those supposed £9M costs. Certainly Vote Leave were entitled to a free distribution to every household and it's inconceivable they wouldn't have used it although the main focus of their written campaign was messaging targeted Facebook users. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 12:00:17 GMT
I didnt say it did . Democracy won in the end thankfully , but between 2016 and 2019 , it was a close thing between the actions of the anti democratic remainers.
Thank god the majority of people are on the side of democracy , and only a few unable to accept it when they lose.
I didn't say you did. Brexit individuals were in control of the country, they were never going to lose. There was not one moment when I thought the result would be overturned. And that was despite the fact that I very quickly after the referendum recognised that the Irish issue might be the Achilles Heel for Brexit. You and everyone else. Although it would only have been the Achilles heel had it stopped the process. What it became was an ongoing problem . |
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 12:00:19 GMT
“After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. Many countries around the world trade with the EU without accepting the supremacy of EU law.” Translation ..countries outside of the EU trade with the EU. We will trade on the same terms . Are the people who believed otherwise as stupid as the ones who didn’t read the small print when we voted to join ? Remember something like 1/3 of voters believed that 'we send £350M to the EU every week' and still believed it over a year after the referendum. They likely still beleive that Turkey joined the EU before Christmas 2016 as well. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 12:04:29 GMT
“After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU. Many countries around the world trade with the EU without accepting the supremacy of EU law.” Translation ..countries outside of the EU trade with the EU. We will trade on the same terms . Are the people who believed otherwise as stupid as the ones who didn’t read the small print when we voted to join ? Remember something like 1/3 of voters believed that 'we send £350M to the EU every week' and still believed it over a year after the referendum. They likely still beleive that Turkey joined the EU before Christmas 2016 as well. Yeah, yeah. If I could be bothered I might dig up some claims that Brexit would result in catastrophes or emergency budgets that never emerged but luckily enough I can’t . The campaigns were littered with half truths and lies from both sides. The difference is that the ex remainers have memorised and inflated the leave ones. That’s why they are so boring and one dimensional. |
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