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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 8:19:22 GMT
I understand perfectly. Basically you were telling me that I should have shut up and not voiced my opinion for 3 years.
Sorry if I disagree with your strange interpretation of democracy.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 8:28:46 GMT
I understand perfectly. Basically you were telling me that I should have shut up and not voiced my opinion for 3 years. Sorry if I disagree with your strange interpretation of democracy. No thats an untruth. Im categoricallly saying you can and always should voice an opinion. Where it went wrong between 2016 and 2019 was that opinion being used to overturn democracy by anti democrats.
You have to accept when you lose , follow the democratic process of implementing a free and fair result , and then once implemented , carry on and campaign anew.
At no point am i saying you arent entitled to an opinon.
...but thats the problem anglo remainers have now. You are tarred with the anti democrtic brush , people who throw tantrums when they lose and cant accept democracy.
So your opinion is rather tarred....
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 9:39:19 GMT
If the referendum had included a confirmation of what leave meant and people had voted for that, there would have been no room for debate. However Cameron's surity that remain would win led to no vision as to what leave was. There was no certainty as to what would happen next. The idea that the options cannot include "think again" because you did not like it is nothing to do with democracy.
The idea that I should just lie back and think of England is just insulting.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 9:53:35 GMT
If the referendum had included a confirmation of what leave meant and people had voted for that, there would have been no room for debate. However Cameron's surity that remain would win led to no vision as to what leave was. There was no certainty as to what would happen next. The idea that the options cannot include "think again" because you did not like it is nothing to do with democracy. The idea that I should just lie back and think of England is just insulting. I think you are inventing stuff to feel offended about andrew with respect.
You cant sit back after the event and moan about questions and what things meant to try and negate a result you dont like. The time to set the rules was beforehand , not after.
The question was simple ..should we remain a member or leave the EU. The result contrary to what i voted was leave. Like it or lump it. That then should have been implemented as soon as possible , but wasnt because of anti democrats trying to invent barriers to implementing the result( or negating the result) as you continue to do .
I said at the time , and remain convinced you were your own worst enemies. You made a martyr of brexit by your anti democratic behaviour , and the result was the people of the uks patience with you coming to an end in the GE2019.
Accept the result , move on , and if you wish to rejoin , stop moaning about spilled milk and support starmer and labour to take you back in or at least tie the uk back into the EU behind the brussells bike sheds.
The idea we who support democracy should continue to listen to the endless anglo remainer bleating of how they lost and how unfair it all is is offensive to the grown ups in any civilised society.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 10:41:17 GMT
I would have thought low tax was right wing? I would have thought public service provision was left wing? I would have thought that good provision of services whilst keeping spending reasonable is centrist. The austerity we had in the teenie and looks likely to return is right wing. I wonder where you would place Boris based on his tax and spend, next to Corbyn I suspect! Exactly. How Bentley sees small government and reduced caring for others interests as 'centre' is quite amazing as they are the classic right wing preferences. Depends on your definition of small government and low taxes . Compared to a tax rate of 90p in the pound , 40p in the pound is low.
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Post by Orac on Nov 3, 2022 10:47:22 GMT
Woke is about caring for the interests of others and how your actions might affect them. I disagree. In any case, policing and 'caring' are (should be) very different categories.
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 10:49:06 GMT
Exactly. How Bentley sees small government and reduced caring for others interests as 'centre' is quite amazing as they are the classic right wing preferences. Depends on your definition of small government and low taxes . Compared to a tax rate of 90p in the pound , 40p in the pound is low. The best consideration is to look at the % of GDP total tax take. And we're already low by developed country levels so someone trying to drive it lower (more towards the USA than say Denmark) is clearly right wing
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 10:53:38 GMT
I'm fascinated by the fact that you feel that democracy involves me not being able to voice my opinion until some arbitrary point as determined by you. That is NOT how democracy works. Im not sure you have understood the exchange between myself and some others on here.
Everyone is free to voice an opinion .What remainers were not free to do in a so called democratic society is overturn a democratic vote before it was implemented. That was my gripe , watching events between 2016 and 2019.
That way lies anarchy and chaos , and we have seen from history , especially northern ireland , how when people feel they cant trust the ballot box they resort to violence.
You have a strange view of democracy that positions are not allowed to be challenged by our elected representatives. By early 2019 two things were known: a) the 2016 vote was not democratic as rules had been massively broken by the official leave campaign b) the government was struggling to agree any sort of sensible deal that even vaguely matched the official leave manifesto There was no democratic way forward without a further democratic endoresement. The alternatives were an election or further referendum. For complex reasons the former was used and gave that clear way forward.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 11:06:52 GMT
Im not sure you have understood the exchange between myself and some others on here.
Everyone is free to voice an opinion .What remainers were not free to do in a so called democratic society is overturn a democratic vote before it was implemented. That was my gripe , watching events between 2016 and 2019.
That way lies anarchy and chaos , and we have seen from history , especially northern ireland , how when people feel they cant trust the ballot box they resort to violence.
You have a strange view of democracy that positions are not allowed to be challenged by our elected representatives. By early 2019 two things were known: a) the 2016 vote was not democratic as rules had been massively broken by the official leave campaign b) the government was struggling to agree any sort of sensible deal that even vaguely matched the official leave manifesto There was no democratic way forward without a further democratic endoresement. The alternatives were an election or further referendum. For complex reasons the former was used and gave that clear way forward. Up to you steve if you wish to continue to deny events and democracy and make up ever increasingly absurd positions to deny the referendum result.
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 11:08:58 GMT
You're the one denying events and the elected representatives basis of the UK democracy.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 3, 2022 11:17:10 GMT
If the referendum had included a confirmation of what leave meant and people had voted for that, there would have been no room for debate... It did and there isn't: The government sent a leaflet to every household in the UK setting out exactly what leave meant: It meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. And remnants have lied about it ever since.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 3, 2022 11:22:39 GMT
Depends on your definition of small government and low taxes . Compared to a tax rate of 90p in the pound , 40p in the pound is low. The best consideration is to look at the % of GDP total tax take. And we're already low by developed country levels so someone trying to drive it lower (more towards the USA than say Denmark) is clearly right wing If you look back to the original post that Andrew answered , there were two parts . Andrew chose to address on half of it . This was the post .. ”Right wing? Seriously 😁 we must become a low tax, smartly regulated,high growth economy.' 'Our police need to focus on preventing crime and catching criminals, not woke nonsense.' I’d say centre.” Imo right wing politics is a mirror image of left wing politics. Elitism instead of egalitarian. Ethnic minorities oppressed instead of the concept of inclusiveness. A tax system that rewards the elite over the masses . Maybe a bit more complex than the lefties mantra of ‘ low tax is right wing’ by default ‘. I don’t see any reason why a government that strived to keep taxes as low as possible, focused on preventing crime and catching criminals, rejected the constant left wing white noise of ‘ woke’ and endeavoured to keep government interference on individuals as minimal as possible could not be considered’ centre ‘.
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2022 11:24:09 GMT
You're the one denying events and the elected representatives basis of the UK democracy. The events were the uk had a referendum asking if we wanted to leave the EU in 2016 , and leave won. Remainers spent three years denying demcoracy with all the puerile sobbing arguments regurgitated over and over , but to no avail in the end.
Democracy won.
The end.
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Post by see2 on Nov 3, 2022 11:24:15 GMT
If I suggested that there is extremism on the Right of politics would you recognise that ? I would accept that it was a meaningless suggestion . Just an attempt to make a banal statement appear profound . The reality is that there is always extremism in extreme positions . That is a very different reaction by yourself to the suggestion that there is extremism on the Left of politics. Does your very different reaction indicate a right-wing background to your reply ?
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Nov 3, 2022 11:25:31 GMT
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 11:25:31 GMT
Both Dan Hannan and Nigel Farage campaigned on the basis of not leaving the customs union or single market.
There was no clear vision as to what leave meant, other than leaving the EU itself.
The decision to leave the SM and CU was made by Teresa May long after Cameron had departed.
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