|
|
Post by totheleft3 on Oct 24, 2022 19:17:07 GMT
Yeah Thomas hows life in the socialist Eutopia called Scotland
Your so against Brexit you live in a country that voted remain and want to rejoin the EU
|
|
|
|
Post by totheleft3 on Oct 24, 2022 19:19:47 GMT
Yeah Thomas hows life in the socialist Eutopia called Scotland
Your so against Brexit you live in a country that voted remain and want to rejoin the EU
|
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 19:34:31 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. well the solution was to join the EEA/EFTA - however the remain supporters rejected this and went off on a pointless crusade to rerun the referendum.. Nope EFTA didn't want us, not that you uber leavers would have accepted the restrictions of being an EEA/EFTA member. Like accepting free movement. Nearly all the downsides of being in the EU with effectively none of the vetoes |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2022 19:52:10 GMT
I am also a supporter of a certain amount of direct democracy through referenda. But I do think people should be treated as more intelligent and given options as to what they want, rather than a straight YES NO question. By example. A straight Y/N question on HS2 could become. Do you want HS2 between X and Y and or Y and Z Do you want the 120mph trains costing £40 billion pounds or 90mph trains at £28Bn ( see travel times below)
Giving the public a far better say. What I find as nothing more than a hypocritical croc of shit by those who support the eu and how we arrived there never ever want to talk about document FCO 30/1048. Maybe you could explain why is that? I'm sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who values your opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 24, 2022 20:05:51 GMT
Yeah Thomas hows life in the socialist Eutopia called Scotland Your so against Brexit you live in a country that voted remain and want to rejoin the EU Stop putting words in my mouth. I voted remain in 2016 , and would do so again. Im also a democrat , and once the genie was out camerons bottle , there was no truning back. You fucked yourselves up big time , just as we scottish fucked ourselves up in 2014 by voting to stay part of the uk in the EU.
We wont make that mistake next time .
|
|
|
|
Reform UK
Oct 24, 2022 20:14:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by dappy on Oct 24, 2022 20:14:16 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. Theres every logic.
The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played. You dont toss the table up in the air because you lose the game of cards and demand to start again do you?
Democracy is fairly simple , unles you are a bitter twisted anglo remainer. You run a campaign for your side , you then vote on it , and 50 +1 wins the day. Once the result is implemented , then the adults normally agree a new campaign can begin again for the next vote.
What you dont do in any demcoracy is run a vote , not implement the result , and then try every dirty trick in the book to overturn the previous result .
That way is the way to violence and civil unrest.
If you cant stand the rules of democracy ,and are a bad loser , then dont partake in the gamble in the first fucking place. Its not diffcult stuff.
I waited patiently to get to your point but apart from swearing and bluster there doesn’t seem to be a coherent one. Let’s try to calm down a little and think logically. If sometime after the referendum before we actually left - let’s say in September 2017 - the majority of the electorate had decided that a mistake had been made, would it have been more legitimate democratically to follow the will of the people in 2016 or the will of the people in 2017? |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Oct 24, 2022 20:17:07 GMT
Which is the point as record breaking is in your eyes the amount of money, not the amount of money spent is seeking to change each vote. Effectively it was about 1.50 per changed vote, whereas in Souh Thanet it was about £30 per changed vote. It was a record breaking overspend. No amount of sus mathematical gymnastics can change that and your 'changed vote' figures are just guestimates and we know the Electoral Commission were determined not to look into what effect that overspend had. Record breaking because we have only had a handful of referenda and in 75 there was no spend limit so the Yes campaign spent three times as much as the no. It is interesting you call a 10% overspend as record breaking yet in South Thanet a 200% overspend is not record breaking. If I recall you call the result of the EU referendum close and ignore it is 1.3 million votes but prefer to talk in percentages of about 4%. I think we all have to be consistent and I include myself there but at least I try to be as everything is relative. Of course my figures are estimates as I was making a general point but that is what you are saying that approx £1.50 changed hundreds of thousands of people's votes. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2022 20:41:16 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. Theres every logic.
The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played. You dont toss the table up in the air because you lose the game of cards and demand to start again do you?
Democracy is fairly simple , unles you are a bitter twisted anglo remainer. You run a campaign for your side , you then vote on it , and 50 +1 wins the day. Once the result is implemented , then the adults normally agree a new campaign can begin again for the next vote.
What you dont do in any demcoracy is run a vote , not implement the result , and then try every dirty trick in the book to overturn the previous result .
That way is the way to violence and civil unrest.
If you cant stand the rules of democracy ,and are a bad loser , then dont partake in the gamble in the first fucking place. Its not diffcult stuff.
I hope this country never uses referendum again, but if it does there would need to be clear rules and guidelines in order to not repeat the shoddy imitation of a referendum of 2016. |
|
|
|
Post by colbops on Oct 24, 2022 21:01:00 GMT
To be fair, he was absolutely right the first time. Referenda are not particularly helpful in a representative democracy. They are used in an extremely cynical way to manipulate a desired result and shut down an argument/debate. When something goes wrong, like it did in the brexit referendum, it creates chaos. I live in hope that politicians have re-learned that they are a mistake and we never have another. No, you're wrong. If you believe in representative democracy, then referendums are very helpful. However, as the EU have shown us, referendums become cynical when the losing side constantly demand another and another referendum until the desired result is achieved. That doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Surely if you believe in representative democracy, you respect the process of those representatives making decisions rather than usurping them via referenda when you think it might suit you. Far from being helpful they are used to shut debate down via false choices, and when they go wrong, you end up with a bunch of representatives who are against delivering on the result, leading to a bit of a mess. It is much more advantageous that representatives take decisions and are then held accountable for them. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 21:04:03 GMT
It was a record breaking overspend. No amount of sus mathematical gymnastics can change that and your 'changed vote' figures are just guestimates and we know the Electoral Commission were determined not to look into what effect that overspend had. Record breaking because we have only had a handful of referenda and in 75 there was no spend limit so the Yes campaign spent three times as much as the no. It is interesting you call a 10% overspend as record breaking yet in South Thanet a 200% overspend is not record breaking. If I recall you call the result of the EU referendum close and ignore it is 1.3 million votes but prefer to talk in percentages of about 4%. I think we all have to be consistent and I include myself there but at least I try to be as everything is relative. Of course my figures are estimates as I was making a general point but that is what you are saying that approx £1.50 changed hundreds of thousands of people's votes. No record breaking because we have had thousands of elections (over 600 each General Election for a start) )and this was by far and away the largest ever illegal overspend. Seems you don't want to admit that |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 21:11:49 GMT
What I find as nothing more than a hypocritical croc of shit by those who support the eu and how we arrived there never ever want to talk about document FCO 30/1048. Maybe you could explain why is that? I'm sorry, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who values your opinion. He's had his sad delusions about FCO 30/1048 completely shredded elsewhere. Several times, most recently on June 2nd last year. The conspiracy theory he's bought into only works if someone can make time travel backwards. Well as all sane sober people know, it doesn't. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Oct 24, 2022 21:15:48 GMT
Theres every logic.
The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played. You dont toss the table up in the air because you lose the game of cards and demand to start again do you?
Democracy is fairly simple , unles you are a bitter twisted anglo remainer. You run a campaign for your side , you then vote on it , and 50 +1 wins the day. Once the result is implemented , then the adults normally agree a new campaign can begin again for the next vote.
What you dont do in any demcoracy is run a vote , not implement the result , and then try every dirty trick in the book to overturn the previous result .
That way is the way to violence and civil unrest.
If you cant stand the rules of democracy ,and are a bad loser , then dont partake in the gamble in the first fucking place. Its not diffcult stuff.
I waited patiently to get to your point but apart from swearing and bluster there doesn’t seem to be a coherent one. Let’s try to calm down a little and think logically. If sometime after the referendum before we actually left - let’s say in September 2017 - the majority of the electorate had decided that a mistake had been made, would it have been more legitimate democratically to follow the will of the people in 2016 or the will of the people in 2017? The die had already been cast, Britain had voted. It made it's bed. And for democracy to work the loses of the vote must accept the result instead of saying things like this: l et’s say in September 2017 - the majority of the electorate had decided that a mistake had been made.
Democracy doesn't blow with the wind every time a gut feeling changes. Yes, people can change their minds. But they can't change the result by trying to stop the result like what we saw after 2016. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 24, 2022 21:21:04 GMT
well the solution was to join the EEA/EFTA - however the remain supporters rejected this and went off on a pointless crusade to rerun the referendum.. Nope EFTA didn't want us, not that you uber leavers would have accepted the restrictions of being an EEA/EFTA member. Like accepting free movement. Nearly all the downsides of being in the EU with effectively none of the vetoes At the risk of repeating myself yet again, it didn't matter what brexit supporters wanted as remainers were in a majority in Parliament. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 21:26:23 GMT
Nope EFTA didn't want us, not that you uber leavers would have accepted the restrictions of being an EEA/EFTA member. Like accepting free movement. Nearly all the downsides of being in the EU with effectively none of the vetoes At the risk of repeating myself yet again, it didn't matter what brexit supporters wanted as remainers were in a majority in Parliament. Awkwardly for you none of the votes Hansard has recorded reflect that imagined position. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 24, 2022 21:28:01 GMT
well the solution was to join the EEA/EFTA - however the remain supporters rejected this and went off on a pointless crusade to rerun the referendum.. To be fair pacifico , norwegian politicians said the uk economy was to big to join EFTA , and theywould veto the uk membership of it time and again.
fully agree , and whatever your stance on brexit for or against , this is something that will tar remainers in england for many years to come. Crazy stuff. REmember keir starmer was the chief architect of overturning brexit in the commons , and of course in labour during their disasterous stance on brexit up to the 2019 GE.
If that man wins the next general election , he will set england on fire , mark my words with his brexit bullshit of making brexit work. Thats starmer code for doing dirty deals behind the brussells bike shed and thinking the plebs are buttoned up the back.
We scots are doing our bit to make sure people dont vote him or his party , with 70 % rejecting him at the ballot box.
I know that Norway had reservations but had we decided on EFTA that would have suited the EU and pressure would have come to bear. FWIW Switzerland was quite happy for the UK to join EFTA |
|
