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Post by jeg er on Oct 24, 2022 12:00:36 GMT
The 2016 referendum did suffer from lies and misrepresentations - arguably from both sides and particularly from the leave side. That is largely irrelevant now. It also suffered from the necessity to boil quite complex arguments down into easy to understand soundbites. It was legitimate as far as it went although perhaps the biggest lesson of the referendum was that referendums are a pretty poor way of making complex important decisions. The design of the referendum was very poor which left us with a marginal win for one side with that option being very poorly defined. Any outcome from leave without a deal to leave the EU but remain within the Single Market and Customs Union would have fallen within the terms of the referendum outcome. This created major problems. Contrary to the bleatings of Johnson and leavers, it was entirely democratically legitimate for those people who felt it was a catastrophic mistake to leave the EU to campaign and seek to persuade by democratic means their fellow citizens to democratically overturn the referendum result. All of this is entirely irrelevant now. The decision to leave was made and cannot now be reversed and the damage has been done. The only thing worse for the UK in particular (and as it happens for the EU) than leaving would be to leave, rejoin leave again etc at regular intervals depending on which party was in power. The EU would have no interest in this outcome and hence the option t rejoin is simply not there and will not be until we have an extended period of many years of consensus between parties with a chance of power that that would be in the best interests of the UK. That consensus has not even formed yet. Until it does and shows itself to be stable, the EU will not entertain us rejoining. People can debate the past if they wish or debate present and future unicorns if they wish to too but frankly it is a waste of time. We are where we are. We now have to make the best of it. should have been a two stage referendum Stage 1 - in or out Stage 2, options for in or options for out, depending upon result of stage 1 And these options to have been quantified in advance of the referendum |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 24, 2022 12:04:15 GMT
What was undemocratic about it? You accuse others of blindly pursuing undemocratic princibles when you know full well the UK population were taken into the eu under nothing else but blatant BS from Heath and his mob.. Apart from the record breaking illegal actions by Vote Leave? What about the remain sides illegal actions and were fined for doing so? Yet again you avoid the point that the UK were taken into the eu by no more than blatant BS. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 24, 2022 12:11:36 GMT
Record breaking and illegal how? They were cleared by the courts weren't they? THey only received fines by the electoral commission and so did Remain for not keeping receipts. It was devious but then all referendums are these days, if you show me one that was completely clean in the last 20 years I will be amazed.
No they were not cleared by the courts. Vote Leave contemplated appealing and shouted long and loud that they would but realised they were very much in the wrong and dropped the appeal. There had never been anything close to a £660k illegal overspend in a UK vote. Well record breaking. And that is SFA compared to the £9 milion the remain side had from the taxpers which leave never had. There are dozens of links out there to reinforce the fact that the remainers were the ones who were undemocratic.
Not fit for purpose: cheating Remainers undermine UK petitions website
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 12:25:23 GMT
No they were not cleared by the courts. Vote Leave contemplated appealing and shouted long and loud that they would but realised they were very much in the wrong and dropped the appeal. There had never been anything close to a £660k illegal overspend in a UK vote. Well record breaking. And that is SFA compared to the £9 milion the remain side had from the taxpers which leave never had. There are dozens of links out there to reinforce the fact that the remainers were the ones who were undemocratic.
Not fit for purpose: cheating Remainers undermine UK petitions website
When it comes to posting stupid links, you truly are the master of the art.
Maybe you should have looked at the petitions website more closely and found how many Brexit petitions (with large amounts of signatures) are on there? And I remember many of them looking sus and dodgy too.
You just shot yourself in both feet, as ever.
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 13:00:27 GMT
Apart from the record breaking illegal actions by Vote Leave? What about the remain sides illegal actions and were fined for doing so? Yet again you avoid the point that the UK were taken into the eu by no more than blatant BS. The ones those voices in your head keep telling you about? Do stop posting these false stories, Remain did not overspend, did not make any illegal actions. They failed to retain ~ 3 receipts. Your chums conspired to and then went on to commit record breaking illegal campaign spend. And they spent it sending even more lies to those targeted swing voters. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 24, 2022 13:00:40 GMT
Record breaking and illegal how? They were cleared by the courts weren't they? THey only received fines by the electoral commission and so did Remain for not keeping receipts. It was devious but then all referendums are these days, if you show me one that was completely clean in the last 20 years I will be amazed.
No they were not cleared by the courts. Vote Leave contemplated appealing and shouted long and loud that they would but realised they were very much in the wrong and dropped the appeal. There had never been anything close to a £660k illegal overspend in a UK vote. Well record breaking. Depends what you mean by record breaking. It may be the largest amount but it was spread over the whole country. In South Thanet the overspend was 60,000 if I recall which is one eleventh of the referendum overspend for what was one 650th, or thereabouts of the country. It seems they were determined to keep Farage out of the Commons and all that would have flowed from his presence there. If you are saying 660 thousand would swing 900,000 votes or thereabouts then I think it is fairly safe to say that 60,000 would have swung a few thousand. But then things are never fair are they? All we can do is our best. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 13:02:03 GMT
'Largest ever' = record breaking Sandy
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Post by sandypine on Oct 24, 2022 13:16:22 GMT
'Largest ever' = record breaking Sandy Which is the point as record breaking is in your eyes the amount of money, not the amount of money spent is seeking to change each vote. Effectively it was about 1.50 per changed vote, whereas in Souh Thanet it was about £30 per changed vote. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 24, 2022 13:17:58 GMT
. Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
This. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 24, 2022 14:25:53 GMT
wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. Its not wise to try and change the rules of the game after the event simply because you lost. Thats called throwing rattle out of pram in a spectacular huff.
The way to have done it was implement the result , then after it was implemented , begin the campagin to rejoin.
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Post by dappy on Oct 24, 2022 14:50:32 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done.
As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 24, 2022 15:09:17 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. well the solution was to join the EEA/EFTA - however the remain supporters rejected this and went off on a pointless crusade to rerun the referendum.. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 18:56:36 GMT
'Largest ever' = record breaking Sandy Which is the point as record breaking is in your eyes the amount of money, not the amount of money spent is seeking to change each vote. Effectively it was about 1.50 per changed vote, whereas in Souh Thanet it was about £30 per changed vote. It was a record breaking overspend. No amount of sus mathematical gymnastics can change that and your 'changed vote' figures are just guestimates and we know the Electoral Commission were determined not to look into what effect that overspend had. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 24, 2022 19:04:48 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. Theres every logic.
The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played. You dont toss the table up in the air because you lose the game of cards and demand to start again do you?
Democracy is fairly simple , unles you are a bitter twisted anglo remainer. You run a campaign for your side , you then vote on it , and 50 +1 wins the day. Once the result is implemented , then the adults normally agree a new campaign can begin again for the next vote.
What you dont do in any demcoracy is run a vote , not implement the result , and then try every dirty trick in the book to overturn the previous result .
That way is the way to violence and civil unrest.
If you cant stand the rules of democracy ,and are a bad loser , then dont partake in the gamble in the first fucking place. Its not diffcult stuff.
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Post by thomas on Oct 24, 2022 19:09:41 GMT
There is no logic to suggesting the campaign to democratically persuade the electorate to change its mind over Brexit should have only started after Brexit was completed. By its nature, Brexit was a one way street - having actually left it will be impossible to ever rejoin on the same terms and in all likelihood impossible to rejoin at all for many many years and the damage to our economy and future of our kids done. As it is the campaign to persuade the population to change their minds failed and the damage is now clear to see. well the solution was to join the EEA/EFTA - however the remain supporters rejected this and went off on a pointless crusade to rerun the referendum.. To be fair pacifico , norwegian politicians said the uk economy was to big to join EFTA , and theywould veto the uk membership of it time and again.
fully agree , and whatever your stance on brexit for or against , this is something that will tar remainers in england for many years to come. Crazy stuff. REmember keir starmer was the chief architect of overturning brexit in the commons , and of course in labour during their disasterous stance on brexit up to the 2019 GE.
If that man wins the next general election , he will set england on fire , mark my words with his brexit bullshit of making brexit work. Thats starmer code for doing dirty deals behind the brussells bike shed and thinking the plebs are buttoned up the back.
We scots are doing our bit to make sure people dont vote him or his party , with 70 % rejecting him at the ballot box.
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