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Post by thomas on Oct 24, 2022 6:47:37 GMT
Ever considered that it is you that wishes to overturn democracy?. We currently have a Government who was elected by a landslide with a mandate to leave the EU and not have another referendum. Now you want the policy of the elected government to be overthrown by someone (yougov, Ipsos MORI, comres) who is not elected by anyone. I know that the EU is not very big on democracy, but such a blatant bypass does take your breath away. . Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
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Post by jonksy on Oct 24, 2022 7:11:54 GMT
Ive known redreckam longer than you zany hes Always been a Redneck
Tell me TTL, what in your opinion is a Redneck? Wear it like a badge of honour my friend and feel lucky that you have been refered too as a good ol boy. I for one envy you. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 8:26:37 GMT
I'm always a bit bemused when I see this 'in 1975' argument. There were quite a few general elections between then and the formation of the EU, most notably the 1992 general election, where the Conservatives stood, in no small part, on what they'd negotiated up to that point. They set out their plans to get the single market in place, as well as a host of other priorities they'd focus on. Since they set out their agenda in their 1992 election campaign and manifesto, and were then invited to form a government based on their election performance, they had a mandate to do what they went on to do. They weren't relying on anything '1975' related at that point. That's very true, but lets not pretend that the true extent of EU membership was not hidden from the UK electorate. Heath lied through his teeth in 1972, Wilson although we're told he was not keen on the European experiment, also lied. And Major, well he didn't even bother lying to the electorate, he just said referendums are unhelpful and handed the UK to the EU. For which the pro EU establishment awarded the treacherous bastard with a knighthood. Incidentally, in 1992 Major said, 'Referendums are unhelpful'. Yet in 2016 he demanded a second referendum. Hypocritical wanker. BS^ Just because someone doesn't tell your false story doesn't mean they are the one lying. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 8:28:49 GMT
. Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 24, 2022 9:00:25 GMT
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish. I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
Yes - it is far more important to many of these people, that the UK population submit to 'proper managerial oversight', than they be happy or prosperous. It's a matter of principle. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 24, 2022 9:09:26 GMT
wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. Except that the referendum came with the promise that the result would be enacted. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 24, 2022 9:10:55 GMT
wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. What was undemocratic about it? You accuse others of blindly pursuing undemocratic princibles when you know full well the UK population were taken into the eu under nothing else but blatant BS from Heath and his mob.. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2022 9:49:05 GMT
. Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. wow. Are you taking the piss here?
After the anti democratic actions of anglo remainers and remainers in westmisnter from 2016 to 2019 , where they tried every trick in the book to overthrow brexit and renege on a democratic mandate to leave the EU , i think this is incredible you would come out with the above pish.
I voted remain , but i said time and again anglo remainers were creating a martyr of brexit that would spectacularly backfire , and give us the worst possible brexit imaginable , which it did.
The anti-Democratic actions clearly failed. Democracy won. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 10:42:49 GMT
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. What was undemocratic about it? You accuse others of blindly pursuing undemocratic princibles when you know full well the UK population were taken into the eu under nothing else but blatant BS from Heath and his mob.. Apart from the record breaking illegal actions by Vote Leave? |
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 10:43:57 GMT
More BS It's not 'anti democratic' to question the wisdom of blindly pursuing an undemocratic advisory referendum to any conclusion. Except that the referendum came with the promise that the result would be enacted. After Vote Leave promised to stick to the rules. They broke the promises first. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 10:45:50 GMT
What was undemocratic about it? You accuse others of blindly pursuing undemocratic princibles when you know full well the UK population were taken into the eu under nothing else but blatant BS from Heath and his mob.. Apart from the record breaking illegal actions by Vote Leave? Record breaking and illegal how? They were cleared by the courts weren't they? THey only received fines by the electoral commission and so did Remain for not keeping receipts. It was devious but then all referendums are these days, if you show me one that was completely clean in the last 20 years I will be amazed.
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 10:46:22 GMT
And those that whinge and whine about supposed anti democratic actions should actually look at what happened in parliament. Boris and co rebelled against the elected government and others just tried to hold the leave Tories (and Vote Leave) to their promise that we wouldn't leave with no deal
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Post by Steve on Oct 24, 2022 10:48:34 GMT
Apart from the record breaking illegal actions by Vote Leave? Record breaking and illegal how? They were cleared by the courts weren't they? THey only received fines by the electoral commission and so did Remain for not keeping receipts. It was devious but then all referendums are these days, if you show me one that was completely clean in the last 20 years I will be amazed.
No they were not cleared by the courts. Vote Leave contemplated appealing and shouted long and loud that they would but realised they were very much in the wrong and dropped the appeal. There had never been anything close to a £660k illegal overspend in a UK vote. Well record breaking. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2022 11:21:27 GMT
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Post by dappy on Oct 24, 2022 11:53:46 GMT
The 2016 referendum did suffer from lies and misrepresentations - arguably from both sides and particularly from the leave side. That is largely irrelevant now. It also suffered from the necessity to boil quite complex arguments down into easy to understand soundbites. It was legitimate as far as it went although perhaps the biggest lesson of the referendum was that referendums are a pretty poor way of making complex important decisions.
The design of the referendum was very poor which left us with a marginal win for one side with that option being very poorly defined. Any outcome from leave without a deal to leave the EU but remain within the Single Market and Customs Union would have fallen within the terms of the referendum outcome. This created major problems.
Contrary to the bleatings of Johnson and leavers, it was entirely democratically legitimate for those people who felt it was a catastrophic mistake to leave the EU to campaign and seek to persuade by democratic means their fellow citizens to democratically overturn the referendum result.
All of this is entirely irrelevant now. The decision to leave was made and cannot now be reversed and the damage has been done. The only thing worse for the UK in particular (and as it happens for the EU) than leaving would be to leave, rejoin leave again etc at regular intervals depending on which party was in power. The EU would have no interest in this outcome and hence the option t rejoin is simply not there and will not be until we have an extended period of many years of consensus between parties with a chance of power that that would be in the best interests of the UK. That consensus has not even formed yet. Until it does and shows itself to be stable, the EU will not entertain us rejoining.
People can debate the past if they wish or debate present and future unicorns if they wish to too but frankly it is a waste of time. We are where we are. We now have to make the best of it.
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