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Post by see2 on Oct 19, 2022 11:21:23 GMT
Yes I voted. And yes I would be open to continuing calls, that's democracy, nothing is ever set in stone. Had we have remained in the EU and then things happened that shifted public opinion to reconsider leaving then I would acknowledge the polls and support a new referendum. Particularly if that change in public opinion polls remained steady against remaining for several years. It would be a sad day when opinion polls were considered as democracy, look at it from the point of elections. Do you think there should be another election if the turnout fell below a certain percentage and should there be another election when the winning candidate is elected by just a few votes or what should happen where a candidate was selected with well less than 20% of the eligible vote? In either case, where would you set the bar?
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Post by Handyman on Oct 19, 2022 11:54:48 GMT
I agree Polls are more often than not proved wrong in the end, plus of course only a small number of people are asked or respond,
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Post by sandypine on Oct 19, 2022 12:08:12 GMT
Those that lose a vote are always happy to have another it gives them a second chance to get all their ducks in row by changing tack, concentrating on where they think they lost the people. There is also the fact that the Remain campaign has been ongoing since 2016 irrespective of cost and has on side many interested parties whose best interests lie in Europe and they are still fighting the good fight. If it had happened as in 75 where everyone said its a fair cop, the vote has been cast let's get on with membership and buckle down there would be no problem. Fat chance the fight has continued apace with ever more strident and dire warnings and one feels that some are actually ensuring that Brexit will not work so that the UK can rejoin. When you have a blatantly corrupted vote there should always be a rerun. You got your Brexit through corrupted democracy, dark dealing by the Electoral Commission and legal loopholes. And it's still a mess The government spent 9 million of our money telling us to vote yes before campaigning started so a happy legality for the government and in reality an overspend for Remain. So I think the referendum had many's a dark undertaking. One can shout collusion all one wants but we know the BBC take EU money and supported Remain by heavily seeking Remain comments and many organisations commented on Remain whilst not included in the spending totals. Question Time, a programme of some influence at the time frequently had Brexiteers outnumbered in a five person panel. It was a game the electorate saw through.
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Post by sandypine on Oct 19, 2022 12:17:56 GMT
The people had the chance of another vote in 2019 (it was a Labour manifesto commitment) - they chose to support the other side. Perhaps we should force people to vote for what you want? You keep peddling that lie, but we all know the real choice in 2019 was Tory or Corbyn Labour. If I recall the LibDems had a type of Remain option and they disappeared without trace almost. So there were other choices and if the EU was critical, as you seem to be saying it is, then that was an option. People at elections have to vote for what they see as most important.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2022 17:01:40 GMT
When you have a blatantly corrupted vote there should always be a rerun. You got your Brexit through corrupted democracy, dark dealing by the Electoral Commission and legal loopholes. And it's still a mess Same old remainer bullshit we have all heard a thousand times before. Your side lost so get over it.
It doesn't matter how many times Brexit ultras who don't even know how the EU works demand the impossible; they will never get it. Same for Remain extremists who adored Jo Swinson and think the Remain campaign was conducted perfectly and ignore absolutely 100% all evidence to the contrary.
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Post by sandypine on Oct 19, 2022 17:44:21 GMT
Same old remainer bullshit we have all heard a thousand times before. Your side lost so get over it.
It doesn't matter how many times Brexit ultras who don't even know how the EU works demand the impossible; they will never get it. Same for Remain extremists who adored Jo Swinson and think the Remain campaign was conducted perfectly and ignore absolutely 100% all evidence to the contrary.
But most of us do know how the EU works, it accrues to itself power little by little and nibble by nibble. All those competences gradually coming into play. The EU does not play by European cooperation it seeks to control through European power. Now I have no objection to European cooperation or even a European Union of sorts, what I do not want is this European Union and the way it has bureaucratised its way into our lives and our governments and presented us with a mock system of democracy that is allowed to tinker at the margins of what they wish to do.
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Post by see2 on Oct 19, 2022 17:57:34 GMT
Could you give an example of the way the EU has "bureaucratised its way into our lives and our governments"
The EU democratic system is similar to that of the UK i.e. 'Representative Democracy'.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2022 18:01:26 GMT
It doesn't matter how many times Brexit ultras who don't even know how the EU works demand the impossible; they will never get it. Same for Remain extremists who adored Jo Swinson and think the Remain campaign was conducted perfectly and ignore absolutely 100% all evidence to the contrary.
But most of us do know how the EU works, it accrues to itself power little by little and nibble by nibble. All those competences gradually coming into play. The EU does not play by European cooperation it seeks to control through European power. Now I have no objection to European cooperation or even a European Union of sorts, what I do not want is this European Union and the way it has bureaucratised its way into our lives and our governments and presented us with a mock system of democracy that is allowed to tinker at the margins of what they wish to do. Nope, you clearly have no idea how it works if that's how you see it, there's a reason opt-outs exist. You've demonstrated very little knowledge of the EU and mostly come out with ad hom rubbish to try and shut down other posters' opinions from what I've seen.
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Post by sandypine on Oct 19, 2022 20:12:45 GMT
But most of us do know how the EU works, it accrues to itself power little by little and nibble by nibble. All those competences gradually coming into play. The EU does not play by European cooperation it seeks to control through European power. Now I have no objection to European cooperation or even a European Union of sorts, what I do not want is this European Union and the way it has bureaucratised its way into our lives and our governments and presented us with a mock system of democracy that is allowed to tinker at the margins of what they wish to do. Nope, you clearly have no idea how it works if that's how you see it, there's a reason opt-outs exist. You've demonstrated very little knowledge of the EU and mostly come out with ad hom rubbish to try and shut down other posters' opinions from what I've seen. I can recall Major's bonfire of EU red tape that did not materialise and in fact increased dramatically under his tenure. The most notable aspect of a bureaucracy is you can do little to counter it and it reaches every aspect of your life. Ad Hom?? Have you an example? I do not think passing an opinion is shutting down other posters.
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Post by sandypine on Oct 19, 2022 20:15:44 GMT
Could you give an example of the way the EU has "bureaucratised its way into our lives and our governments" The EU democratic system is similar to that of the UK i.e. 'Representative Democracy'. Major tried to cut EU red tape and managed to see it increase under his governments. Once a bureaucracy has the power to make regulations without too much interference it just keeps on regulating all in the name of anything you wish to name. (Health and Safety, fighting terrorism, saving fish reserves, saving the planet)
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Post by zanygame on Oct 19, 2022 20:19:21 GMT
Yes I voted. And yes I would be open to continuing calls, that's democracy, nothing is ever set in stone. Had we have remained in the EU and then things happened that shifted public opinion to reconsider leaving then I would acknowledge the polls and support a new referendum. Particularly if that change in public opinion polls remained steady against remaining for several years. It would be a sad day when opinion polls were considered as democracy, look at it from the point of elections. Do you think there should be another election if the turnout fell below a certain percentage and should there be another election when the winning candidate is elected by just a few votes or what should happen where a candidate was selected with well less than 20% of the eligible vote? In either case, where would you set the bar? I see no reason why opinion polls would make it a sad day for democracy. They are just indications of what the public think. And I would not propose they replace GE's as these already repeat over fixed periods, so you get to change your mind. So maybe you make a good point, rather than relying on opinion polls perhaps we should have had a fixed date second referendum so the public could vote on whether Brexit had worked or they wanted in reversed. Completely different conversation, but the current events have caused me to look up for the first time in my life if there was any way for the public to force a GE.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 19, 2022 21:10:13 GMT
It would be a sad day when opinion polls were considered as democracy, look at it from the point of elections. Do you think there should be another election if the turnout fell below a certain percentage and should there be another election when the winning candidate is elected by just a few votes or what should happen where a candidate was selected with well less than 20% of the eligible vote? In either case, where would you set the bar? I see no reason why opinion polls would make it a sad day for democracy. They are just indications of what the public think. And I would not propose they replace GE's as these already repeat over fixed periods, so you get to change your mind. So maybe you make a good point, rather than relying on opinion polls perhaps we should have had a fixed date second referendum so the public could vote on whether Brexit had worked or they wanted in reversed. If there is an appetite for a second referendum then the parties advocating that at the next GE will sweep the board - no need for special legislation.
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Post by Steve on Oct 19, 2022 21:46:18 GMT
When you have a blatantly corrupted vote there should always be a rerun. You got your Brexit through corrupted democracy, dark dealing by the Electoral Commission and legal loopholes. And it's still a mess The government spent 9 million of our money telling us to vote yes before campaigning started so a happy legality for the government and in reality an overspend for Remain. So I think the referendum had many's a dark undertaking. One can shout collusion all one wants but we know the BBC take EU money and supported Remain by heavily seeking Remain comments and many organisations commented on Remain whilst not included in the spending totals. Question Time, a programme of some influence at the time frequently had Brexiteers outnumbered in a five person panel. It was a game the electorate saw through. At which point will you finally realise that there was a regulated period and an unregulated period and unregulated campaigns and regulated campaigns? You have been told this before so I guess even tomorrow isn't looking good. The unregulated period is when the government allegedly (but unlikely) spent that supposed £9M, the unregulated campaigns by the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, Sun and Times spent far far more than that. So if you wish to complain about unregulated activities try doing it fairly and cover all the unregulated campaigns. And what you cannot dispute is Vote Leave overspent by nearly 10% spending it all in the last week when Remain had to shut down and then the Electoral Commission knowing of this since November 2016 decided to issue a report to MPs considering the Article 50 bill saying nothing was wrong. And only when forced by legal action did they over a year later admit the Vote Leave campaign was illegal. But guess what the Electoral Commission didn't then do? Correct that issued report or perform any analysis of the likely impact of that one sided illegally funded last week of campaigning. Because all through the Electoral Commission was biased towards Vote Leave. As I've said before, Brexit is a done deal but the search for the guilty will never be over.
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Post by zanygame on Oct 20, 2022 6:39:03 GMT
I see no reason why opinion polls would make it a sad day for democracy. They are just indications of what the public think. And I would not propose they replace GE's as these already repeat over fixed periods, so you get to change your mind. So maybe you make a good point, rather than relying on opinion polls perhaps we should have had a fixed date second referendum so the public could vote on whether Brexit had worked or they wanted in reversed. If there is an appetite for a second referendum then the parties advocating that at the next GE will sweep the board - no need for special legislation. You really think its that simple? How would they know what the public appetite is?
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 20, 2022 7:00:41 GMT
If there is an appetite for a second referendum then the parties advocating that at the next GE will sweep the board - no need for special legislation. You really think its that simple? How would they know what the public appetite is? That is exactly what all political parties do every election - put forward policies that they believe the public want and will vote for. If there is overwhelming support for another referendum then those parties advocating another referendum will do well.
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