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Post by Ripley on Mar 21, 2024 21:26:25 GMT
That's an interesting point, and it might be instructive to look at why an Orania can exist and even thrive in South Africa but would likely (but not necessarily certainly) be doomed to failure in the UK or some other western liberal democracy. Part of the secret it seems to me is to create a community which by its very nature would be unlikely to appeal to those who you don't wish to include. The Oranians have done this by focusing completely on Afrikaner language, culture and history. They are almost completely financially independent, receiving no local or government funds or subsidies. Very importantly there are no benefits and there is no need for unskilled labour; they do everything from housebuilding to sweeping the streets themselves. Finally, they give the strong impression of being able to look after themselves. All the public employees seemed to carry guns, as did the ushers at church. It would be a very brave jihadi or ANC fanatic who chose Orania as a place to run amok or even rob the filling station. Something to mull over. Black South Africans generally know and can speak Afrikaans because it is still a compulsory school subject up to Grade 12. And the Afrikaners and blacks have a long shared history. It is precisely because the Afrikaners comprise such a tiny percentage of the South African population that some of them feel the need to preserve their heritage. Of the roughly 2.4 million Afrikaners, only 2500 of them settled in Orania in 2022. Their little enclave is unlikely to affect anyone or attract much notice in SA's population of roughly 57 million. And it is located in the inhospitable Karoo. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 21, 2024 21:38:09 GMT
It's not that inhospitable. Being adjacent to the Orange River irrigation fed agriculture is the basis of their economy. It includes a very large pecan nut plantation most of whose production is exported to China.
I don't have any data on how many black and coloured South Africans speak Afrikaans as their first language do you? We do know that 100% of Afrikaners do.
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 21, 2024 21:55:16 GMT
OK try the HRA which says it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour. Therefor a British Orania would indeed be, challenging lol. Actually the HRA says no such thing. It merely carries forward the ECvHR into UK law from which Art 14 prohibits discrimination on a number of grounds.
But yes, the fact remains that a British Orania would be challenging. But not impossible. The secret would be, as mentioned earlier, to establish the community in a way that it would have little appeal for any except those for whom it is intended. A large part of that would need to reflect the importance of the estate agents mantra 'Location, Location, Location'.
As a matter of fact, even in 2024 a very large proportion of the land area of England is still comparatively monocultural (>85% white British), so there are a good number of options as long as you steer clear of the existing 'Bantustans' which are largely confined to urban areas in London and the South East, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 21, 2024 22:00:56 GMT
It's not that inhospitable. Being adjacent to the Orange River irrigation fed agriculture is the basis of their economy. It includes a very large pecan nut plantation most of whose production is exported to China. I don't have any data on how many black and coloured South Africans speak Afrikaans as their first language do you? We do know that 100% of Afrikaners do. I have driven through the Karoo. Compared to the rest of the country which is very scenic, it's horrible scrubland, but that's just my impression. I'm not saying that the blacks speak Afrikaans as their first language, not at all. There are at least thirty-five languages spoken in South Africa, twelve of which are official languages: Ndebele, Pedi, Sotho, South African Sign Language, Swazi, Tsonga, Tswana, Venda, Afrikaans, Xhosa, Zulu and English. In my experience, many blacks speak several of these languages, including Afrikaans and English which are both taught in school. Communication is always possible in English or Afrikaans, and usually in both. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 21, 2024 22:05:49 GMT
It might be idea in that case for them to switch to Welsh
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 21, 2024 22:26:21 GMT
considering the current hysteria over male only private spaces,I cannot see private spaces determined by race being allowed.
Unless you are a West End theater of course.
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Post by Red Rackham on Mar 21, 2024 22:36:53 GMT
OK try the HRA which says it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour. Therefor a British Orania would indeed be, challenging lol. Actually the HRA says no such thing. It merely carries forward the ECvHR into UK law from which Art 14 prohibits discrimination on a number of grounds. But yes, the fact remains that a British Orania would be challenging. But not impossible. The secret would be, as mentioned earlier, to establish the community in a way that it would have little appeal for any except those for whom it is intended. A large part of that would need to reflect the importance of the estate agents mantra 'Location, Location, Location'. As a matter of fact, even in 2024 a very large proportion of the land area of England is still comparatively monocultural (>85% white British), so there are a good number of options as long as you steer clear of the existing 'Bantustans' which are largely confined to urban areas in London and the South East, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire. Article 14 of the HRA specifically makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour - link As I said previously I would have no objection to a British Orania, but it would not be 'challenging', it would be impossible, a none starter. Under current legislation and particularly with the current trend of woke and appeasing minorities, it would be impossible. I am aware that large areas of this green and pleasant land are yet to be infected with multiculturalism but with current trends, that wont last long. In 2000 the population of England (Not UK) was less than 50 million, by 2022 it was 58 million. I remember those monocultural green and pleasant areas, I very much doubt my grandchildren will. |
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Post by Ripley on Mar 21, 2024 23:19:50 GMT
Actually the HRA says no such thing. It merely carries forward the ECvHR into UK law from which Art 14 prohibits discrimination on a number of grounds. But yes, the fact remains that a British Orania would be challenging. But not impossible. The secret would be, as mentioned earlier, to establish the community in a way that it would have little appeal for any except those for whom it is intended. A large part of that would need to reflect the importance of the estate agents mantra 'Location, Location, Location'. As a matter of fact, even in 2024 a very large proportion of the land area of England is still comparatively monocultural (>85% white British), so there are a good number of options as long as you steer clear of the existing 'Bantustans' which are largely confined to urban areas in London and the South East, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire. Article 14 of the HRA specifically makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour - link As I said previously I would have no objection to a British Orania, but it would not be 'challenging', it would be impossible, a none starter. Under current legislation and particularly with the current trend of woke and appeasing minorities, it would be impossible. I am aware that large areas of this green and pleasant land are yet to be infected with multiculturalism but with current trends, that wont last long. In 2000 the population of England (Not UK) was less than 50 million, by 2022 it was 58 million. I remember those monocultural green and pleasant areas, I very much doubt my grandchildren will. The point of South Africa's Orania is so that a minority group can preserve its heritage. Since the majority of England's population is monocultural, one would expect them to be able to preserve their heritage without a problem since they are in charge. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Mar 21, 2024 23:28:35 GMT
Article 14 of the HRA specifically makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour - link As I said previously I would have no objection to a British Orania, but it would not be 'challenging', it would be impossible, a none starter. Under current legislation and particularly with the current trend of woke and appeasing minorities, it would be impossible. I am aware that large areas of this green and pleasant land are yet to be infected with multiculturalism but with current trends, that wont last long. In 2000 the population of England (Not UK) was less than 50 million, by 2022 it was 58 million. I remember those monocultural green and pleasant areas, I very much doubt my grandchildren will. The point of South Africa's Orania is so that a minority group can preserve its heritage. Since the majority of England's population is monocultural, one would expect them to be able to preserve their heritage without a problem since they are in charge. LOL superb, good one. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 22, 2024 5:46:32 GMT
So to sum up, nobody here has a problem with a minority group of immigrant descendants choosing to isolate themselves in a small corner of the country, speaking their own language and not integrating with the mainstream indigenous population and culture, correct?
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Post by Orac on Mar 22, 2024 7:33:47 GMT
So to sum up, nobody here has a problem with a minority group of immigrant descendants choosing to isolate themselves in a small corner of the country, speaking their own language and not integrating with the mainstream indigenous population and culture, correct? Maybe For instance, If Indians want to make same area of India 'Indian only', I would have no issue at all. Why would I? Presumably - you are forcing the concept of minority in to your analysis to allow a particular asymmetry - ie territory to to be taken off your target group |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 22, 2024 7:38:22 GMT
Article 14 of the HRA specifically makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour - link As I said previously I would have no objection to a British Orania, but it would not be 'challenging', it would be impossible, a none starter. Under current legislation and particularly with the current trend of woke and appeasing minorities, it would be impossible. I am aware that large areas of this green and pleasant land are yet to be infected with multiculturalism but with current trends, that wont last long. In 2000 the population of England (Not UK) was less than 50 million, by 2022 it was 58 million. I remember those monocultural green and pleasant areas, I very much doubt my grandchildren will. The point of South Africa's Orania is so that a minority group can preserve its heritage. Since the majority of England's population is monocultural, one would expect them to be able to preserve their heritage without a problem since they are in charge.They are?  |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 22, 2024 7:51:53 GMT
So to sum up, nobody here has a problem with a minority group of immigrant descendants choosing to isolate themselves in a small corner of the country, speaking their own language and not integrating with the mainstream indigenous population and culture, correct? Maybe For instance, If Indians want to make same area of India 'Indian only', I would have no issue at all. Why would I? Presumably - you are forcing the concept of minority in to your analysis to allow a particular asymmetry - ie territory to to be taken off your target group "If Indians want to make same area of India 'Indian only', I would have no issue at all." If a group of British people of Indian descent wanted to make an area of Britain asian only how would you feel about that? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 22, 2024 8:39:26 GMT
Article 14 of the HRA specifically makes it illegal to discriminate on grounds of colour - link As I said previously I would have no objection to a British Orania, but it would not be 'challenging', it would be impossible, a none starter. Under current legislation and particularly with the current trend of woke and appeasing minorities, it would be impossible. I am aware that large areas of this green and pleasant land are yet to be infected with multiculturalism but with current trends, that wont last long. In 2000 the population of England (Not UK) was less than 50 million, by 2022 it was 58 million. I remember those monocultural green and pleasant areas, I very much doubt my grandchildren will. There are still large swathes of England which are relatively uninfected.
As for the impossibility or otherwise, remember that Orania when originally settled was a run-down almost empty settlement which was bought after apartheid was abolished and has been steadily added to since.
There are many such settlements potentially available for purchase as long as you avoid the aforesaid Bantustans, which are readily identifiable on the map. The mining village where my father was born in Co. Durham comes to mind.
It's a matter of vision and boxing clever not rolling over playing dead because it's all just too hard.
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 22, 2024 8:50:17 GMT
So to sum up, nobody here has a problem with a minority group of immigrant descendants choosing to isolate themselves in a small corner of the country, speaking their own language and not integrating with the mainstream indigenous population and culture, correct? It's not something that one would do by design if starting from scratch, but since we're having to deal with a fait accompli created by successive earlier (and present) governments it becomes a matter of choosing between preserving something of our heritage and culture and losing it all.
In the circumstances, a territorial 'solution' is the least worst outcome in my view.
In short I wouldn't have a problem with doing as you propose.
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