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Post by Orac on Mar 17, 2024 11:58:40 GMT
Bombing of civilians, shooting of civilians, follow the news reports, it's happened. Shit that always happens in a war? I don't think Israel has any chance of solving its problems with harsh language - so not a lot of options here.
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 12:09:01 GMT
One difference with Christianity and Islam. As yet, nobody has strapped a bomb to themselves in the name of Jesus and blown up a train full of commuters. And I've seen nothing in the New Testament that actually encourages such violence. There is stuff in the Koran which does encourage killing. As for the Zionists, there is stuff in the Old Testament and the Talmud which encourages killing. skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html Look no further than Deuteronomy, it's evil. Of course what the Israelis are doing is terrorism and I condemn the murder of civilians which the IDF are committing. Gaza is on the verge of a terror famine, and if it goes fully into a terror famine, those of us who support the existence of Israel as a sovereign country (but not its behaviour), are going to face a new terror threat ourselves. It stands to reason, because there are a minority of militant and very irate muslims in western countries who belive in the bits which state stuff like this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/all/cr_list.htmlWe all remember what happened on the 11th of September 2001 (New York, Washington DC and Stonycreek Pennsylvania), 11th March 2004 (Madrid) and on the 7th of July 2005 (London) to name but a few Islamist terrorist attacks, of course there have been far more in the Middle East. Brilliant response, thank you. Let's not forget that in the US for example Christian Extremist have attacked and vandalised Abortion Clinics, even in states and at times when abortion was perfectly legal. The reason there's no reports of Christians blowing up bombs on trains is because the vast majority of Christian Terrorism is mainly historic. One such example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden 4,500 dead in ONE day because they refused to be forcibly converted to Christianity. Christianity was spread as much by the sword as Islam - it just happened prior to the modern era. Look at the violence, physical, cultural and sexual committed by "good Christians" against the Native American Peoples. Also remember that Anders Breivik was a Christian, and hsi Christianity informed his choice to murder 69 innocent people (his full list of convictions is 8x Bombing, 210 Attempted Bombing, 69x Murder, 32x Attempted Murder) For more recent acts of Christian Terrorism, even one from December 2022, look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Tactics_of_terroristsI am a Historian by training (Masters Degree in Ancient History & Archaeology); all the terrors we see today committed by extremist Islamists have their historic mirrors in acts of terror committed by extremist Christians and Jews (the land of Israel was one inhabited by "pagans" who were forcibly converted to Judaism or were killed). So I have little patience with the notion that Islam is somehow particularly prone to terrorism; all monotheistic, proselyting religions have used violence and terror to conquer their way to power. That is not to say that non-monotheistic religions have not committed violence against other groups; they have, but it tends not to be about differences of religious ideas, and more about more mundane theatres of conflict such as resources, territory, revenge etc. Now, of course the Quran contains passages that have been used to justify killing (might want to look up the Christian doctrine of The Just War though). But it also has passages that prohibit violence, protect the rights of others to believe on other gods but Allah, or indeed in no gods at all. Quran 10:19 - "Had your Lord so willed, all those who are on the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force people into believing?" Quran 2:256 - "Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood." Much like the Bible the Quran is contradictory at times; and soi, again like the Bible, extremist will latch on to whatever they need to latch on to in an attempt to justify their extremist behaviour. I am willing to bet that a significant percentage of religious extremists would still turn to extremism even if religion had never existed. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 12:10:12 GMT
The same is true of Zionism. It seeks to expel all Non-Jews from whatever land it wants to claim as Israel. Well that is obviously bunk - in the 1950's 90% of the population of Israel was Jewish - now that is down to 75%. If the Jews are trying to exterminate the non-Jews they are not very good at it.Tell that to the 30,000 plus dead Gazans. Oh wait, Israel killed them all, you can't. All The Best
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Post by buccaneer on Mar 17, 2024 12:25:47 GMT
It appears such folk love to cancel people and opinions of certain persuasion, but they don't like cancelling extremism. They'd sooner cancel thee for the robustness of speaking about the issue, rather than the issue itself. I am as opposed the genuine extremism as anyone. I am equally opposed to "throw enough shit and hope / pretend some of it sticks". Look, it is pretty obvious to any who has even a basic knowledge of Satanism and other Judeo-Christian religions that being buried at 45 degrees is nothing at all to do with them. If being buried at 45 degrees were in anyway linked to Satanism then Vinny would be able to provide evidence to support that. He hasn't - because he just made it up. If he made that up we have to ask what else has he made up? Debate should be informed, and that requires supporting evidence. That is all I am looking for. There are plenty of people who have views I don't agree with, but who have expressed those views with some supporting evidence. This isn't one of them. And frankly people blaming made up sky-fairies (what ever deity it may be) for bad shit that people choose to do is pretty lame. All The Best I never remarked about Satanism when quoting to Vinny. I was speaking in general terms. And you can think Islamists are pretty lame, but it doesn't alter the fact that all their horror and barbarity is done under their view of their sky-fairy.
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 12:49:47 GMT
I am as opposed the genuine extremism as anyone. I am equally opposed to "throw enough shit and hope / pretend some of it sticks". Look, it is pretty obvious to any who has even a basic knowledge of Satanism and other Judeo-Christian religions that being buried at 45 degrees is nothing at all to do with them. If being buried at 45 degrees were in anyway linked to Satanism then Vinny would be able to provide evidence to support that. He hasn't - because he just made it up. If he made that up we have to ask what else has he made up? Debate should be informed, and that requires supporting evidence. That is all I am looking for. There are plenty of people who have views I don't agree with, but who have expressed those views with some supporting evidence. This isn't one of them. And frankly people blaming made up sky-fairies (what ever deity it may be) for bad shit that people choose to do is pretty lame. All The Best I never remarked about Satanism when quoting to Vinny. I was speaking in general terms. And you can think Islamists are pretty lame, but it doesn't alter the fact that all their horror and barbarity is done under their view of their sky-fairy. I never said Islamists were "pretty lame". I said blaming their actions, or by extension them justifying their actions, using a "made-up sky-fairy" is pretty lame. 99% of people do the vast majority of things they do for one simple reason: they want to do them. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 12:53:08 GMT
Bombing of civilians, shooting of civilians, follow the news reports, it's happened. Shit that always happens in a war? I don't think Israel has any chance of solving its problems with harsh language - so not a lot of options here. It has even less chance of solving them by bombing 2 million people into the stone-age and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes. Israel, under the terrorist, extremist leadership of Netanyahu is fast spiralling toward becoming a pariah state. Because that is exactly what Netanyahu wants. All The Best
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Post by Vinny on Mar 17, 2024 12:55:58 GMT
Bombing of civilians, shooting of civilians, follow the news reports, it's happened. Shit that always happens in a war? I don't think Israel has any chance of solving its problems with harsh language - so not a lot of options here. There are no excuses for shooting toddlers and other children in broad daylight at close range. There are no excuses for killing queues of people queueing for food. I defend the right of Israel to exist, not to commit war crimes.
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Post by Orac on Mar 17, 2024 13:18:27 GMT
Shit that always happens in a war? I don't think Israel has any chance of solving its problems with harsh language - so not a lot of options here. There are no excuses for shooting toddlers and other children in broad daylight at close range. There are no excuses for killing queues of people queueing for food. Of course there are excuses. Mistakes happen etc etc. You are being way too over-categorical
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Post by sandypine on Mar 17, 2024 13:20:53 GMT
One difference with Christianity and Islam. As yet, nobody has strapped a bomb to themselves in the name of Jesus and blown up a train full of commuters. And I've seen nothing in the New Testament that actually encourages such violence. There is stuff in the Koran which does encourage killing. As for the Zionists, there is stuff in the Old Testament and the Talmud which encourages killing. skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html Look no further than Deuteronomy, it's evil. Of course what the Israelis are doing is terrorism and I condemn the murder of civilians which the IDF are committing. Gaza is on the verge of a terror famine, and if it goes fully into a terror famine, those of us who support the existence of Israel as a sovereign country (but not its behaviour), are going to face a new terror threat ourselves. It stands to reason, because there are a minority of militant and very irate muslims in western countries who belive in the bits which state stuff like this: skepticsannotatedbible.com/all/cr_list.htmlWe all remember what happened on the 11th of September 2001 (New York, Washington DC and Stonycreek Pennsylvania), 11th March 2004 (Madrid) and on the 7th of July 2005 (London) to name but a few Islamist terrorist attacks, of course there have been far more in the Middle East. Brilliant response, thank you. Let's not forget that in the US for example Christian Extremist have attacked and vandalised Abortion Clinics, even in states and at times when abortion was perfectly legal. The reason there's no reports of Christians blowing up bombs on trains is because the vast majority of Christian Terrorism is mainly historic. One such example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden 4,500 dead in ONE day because they refused to be forcibly converted to Christianity. Christianity was spread as much by the sword as Islam - it just happened prior to the modern era. Look at the violence, physical, cultural and sexual committed by "good Christians" against the Native American Peoples. Also remember that Anders Breivik was a Christian, and hsi Christianity informed his choice to murder 69 innocent people (his full list of convictions is 8x Bombing, 210 Attempted Bombing, 69x Murder, 32x Attempted Murder) For more recent acts of Christian Terrorism, even one from December 2022, look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Tactics_of_terroristsI am a Historian by training (Masters Degree in Ancient History & Archaeology); all the terrors we see today committed by extremist Islamists have their historic mirrors in acts of terror committed by extremist Christians and Jews (the land of Israel was one inhabited by "pagans" who were forcibly converted to Judaism or were killed). So I have little patience with the notion that Islam is somehow particularly prone to terrorism; all monotheistic, proselyting religions have used violence and terror to conquer their way to power. That is not to say that non-monotheistic religions have not committed violence against other groups; they have, but it tends not to be about differences of religious ideas, and more about more mundane theatres of conflict such as resources, territory, revenge etc. Now, of course the Quran contains passages that have been used to justify killing (might want to look up the Christian doctrine of The Just War though). But it also has passages that prohibit violence, protect the rights of others to believe on other gods but Allah, or indeed in no gods at all. Quran 10:19 - "Had your Lord so willed, all those who are on the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force people into believing?" Quran 2:256 - "Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood." Much like the Bible the Quran is contradictory at times; and soi, again like the Bible, extremist will latch on to whatever they need to latch on to in an attempt to justify their extremist behaviour. I am willing to bet that a significant percentage of religious extremists would still turn to extremism even if religion had never existed. All The Best WE all live in the here and now, what is taught now, what people believe now, how people react now and to whom they direct their ire in the here and now. Historically many trials and tribulations have been enacted so we have to realistically consider what is happening now. We managed to remove ourselves from the stultifying effects of Christian beliefs in the very recent past and now criticising and ridiculing Christianity is not a problem, criticising Islam brings with it danger from adherents in the here and now and in the here and now we are subject to spending oodles of cash to watch many of those from the religion of peace who seem to wish us harm at many turns. Yet for some strange reason we seem unable and/or unwilling to eject fresh incomers from that religion and carry out very little in the way of risk assessment of new arrivals. As a way to spend money this is at best idiotic as it would take very little cost to stop or eject an arrival but it costs a fortune to carry out continuous watch on many of those arrivals.
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Post by Orac on Mar 17, 2024 13:30:33 GMT
Shit that always happens in a war? I don't think Israel has any chance of solving its problems with harsh language - so not a lot of options here. It has even less chance of solving them by bombing 2 million people into the stone-age and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes. Ignoring your rhetorical flourish - that's arguable. If all boundary setting and bargaining fail, this is what you are left with and its not pretty. We can see this on an individual level as well. If I (as an individual) keep pursuing a tactic of pleading for a fight to be broken up but I also use the pauses to hit my opponents, eventually i will just have my shit stoved in. If i were 'the Palestinians', I would attempt to set physical boundaries and i would make sure my side stuck to them. I wouldn't employ a tactic of sucker punching because i have no way to defend myself if that tactic goes sideways.
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 13:48:55 GMT
Brilliant response, thank you. Let's not forget that in the US for example Christian Extremist have attacked and vandalised Abortion Clinics, even in states and at times when abortion was perfectly legal. The reason there's no reports of Christians blowing up bombs on trains is because the vast majority of Christian Terrorism is mainly historic. One such example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden 4,500 dead in ONE day because they refused to be forcibly converted to Christianity. Christianity was spread as much by the sword as Islam - it just happened prior to the modern era. Look at the violence, physical, cultural and sexual committed by "good Christians" against the Native American Peoples. Also remember that Anders Breivik was a Christian, and hsi Christianity informed his choice to murder 69 innocent people (his full list of convictions is 8x Bombing, 210 Attempted Bombing, 69x Murder, 32x Attempted Murder) For more recent acts of Christian Terrorism, even one from December 2022, look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Tactics_of_terroristsI am a Historian by training (Masters Degree in Ancient History & Archaeology); all the terrors we see today committed by extremist Islamists have their historic mirrors in acts of terror committed by extremist Christians and Jews (the land of Israel was one inhabited by "pagans" who were forcibly converted to Judaism or were killed). So I have little patience with the notion that Islam is somehow particularly prone to terrorism; all monotheistic, proselyting religions have used violence and terror to conquer their way to power. That is not to say that non-monotheistic religions have not committed violence against other groups; they have, but it tends not to be about differences of religious ideas, and more about more mundane theatres of conflict such as resources, territory, revenge etc. Now, of course the Quran contains passages that have been used to justify killing (might want to look up the Christian doctrine of The Just War though). But it also has passages that prohibit violence, protect the rights of others to believe on other gods but Allah, or indeed in no gods at all. Quran 10:19 - "Had your Lord so willed, all those who are on the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force people into believing?" Quran 2:256 - "Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood." Much like the Bible the Quran is contradictory at times; and soi, again like the Bible, extremist will latch on to whatever they need to latch on to in an attempt to justify their extremist behaviour. I am willing to bet that a significant percentage of religious extremists would still turn to extremism even if religion had never existed. All The Best WE all live in the here and now, what is taught now, what people believe now, how people react now and to whom they direct their ire in the here and now. Historically many trials and tribulations have been enacted so we have to realistically consider what is happening now. We managed to remove ourselves from the stultifying effects of Christian beliefs in the very recent past and now criticising and ridiculing Christianity is not a problem, criticising Islam brings with it danger from adherents in the here and now and in the here and now we are subject to spending oodles of cash to watch many of those from the religion of peace who seem to wish us harm at many turns. Yet for some strange reason we seem unable and/or unwilling to eject fresh incomers from that religion and carry out very little in the way of risk assessment of new arrivals. As a way to spend money this is at best idiotic as it would take very little cost to stop or eject an arrival but it costs a fortune to carry out continuous watch on many of those arrivals. Did we, when? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_SpiritualUp to 26 people who believe in a specific sky-fairy have direct input into the laws of this land, not because they were elected, but solely because they believe in that specific sky-fairy. Many individual Churches have charitable status (to avoid taxation), despite The Church of England as a whole sitting on £9.5 Billion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_religious_organizations). The Church Of England is the Official State Religion of England. Doesn't really look like what you have suggested, does it? All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on Mar 17, 2024 13:54:42 GMT
It has even less chance of solving them by bombing 2 million people into the stone-age and committing crimes against humanity and war crimes. Ignoring your rhetorical flourish - that's arguable. If all boundary setting and bargaining fail, this is what you are left with and its not pretty. We can see this on an individual level as well. If I (as an individual) keep pursuing a tactic of pleading for a fight to be broken up but I also use the pauses to hit my opponents, eventually i will just have my shit stoved in. If i were 'the Palestinians', I would attempt to set physical boundaries and i would make sure my side stuck to them. I wouldn't employ a tactic of sucker punching because i have no way to defend myself if that tactic goes sideways. Well, the Palestinians did in fact try to live within the boundaries set for them. Then Israel invaded, started small-scale ethnic cleansing, started building illegal settlements, and then created in Gaza the world's largest concentration camp. I have long advocated that Israel should withdraw to the UN Partition Borders, and thereby significantly reduce tensions in the area. Instead extremist Zionists, of which Netanyahu is one, have decided that the only borders they will accept is the Ersatz Israel borders, that are effectively and have been referred to by Israeli officials as "from the river to the sea", a term that if a Non-Jew were to say it would likely be classed as a hate crime. All The Best
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Post by Orac on Mar 17, 2024 14:06:58 GMT
Ignoring your rhetorical flourish - that's arguable. If all boundary setting and bargaining fail, this is what you are left with and its not pretty. We can see this on an individual level as well. If I (as an individual) keep pursuing a tactic of pleading for a fight to be broken up but I also use the pauses to hit my opponents, eventually i will just have my shit stoved in. If i were 'the Palestinians', I would attempt to set physical boundaries and i would make sure my side stuck to them. I wouldn't employ a tactic of sucker punching because i have no way to defend myself if that tactic goes sideways. Well, the Palestinians did in fact try to live within the boundaries set for them. I have long advocated that Israel should withdraw to the UN Partition Borders, and thereby significantly reduce tensions in the area. I don't know what invasions you are referring to. I do know Israel gained some territory historically as a result of attempts to invade them failing. The point i'm making here is that 'the Palestinians' are in a position in which makes their best play one of setting boundaries that have meaning. However, they seem to want to employ the tactics of someone who has no interest in boundaries because they have the military advantage. This is the wrong tactic for them, but they don't seem be able to get the memo.
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Post by sandypine on Mar 17, 2024 14:28:20 GMT
WE all live in the here and now, what is taught now, what people believe now, how people react now and to whom they direct their ire in the here and now. Historically many trials and tribulations have been enacted so we have to realistically consider what is happening now. We managed to remove ourselves from the stultifying effects of Christian beliefs in the very recent past and now criticising and ridiculing Christianity is not a problem, criticising Islam brings with it danger from adherents in the here and now and in the here and now we are subject to spending oodles of cash to watch many of those from the religion of peace who seem to wish us harm at many turns. Yet for some strange reason we seem unable and/or unwilling to eject fresh incomers from that religion and carry out very little in the way of risk assessment of new arrivals. As a way to spend money this is at best idiotic as it would take very little cost to stop or eject an arrival but it costs a fortune to carry out continuous watch on many of those arrivals. Did we, when? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_SpiritualUp to 26 people who believe in a specific sky-fairy have direct input into the laws of this land, not because they were elected, but solely because they believe in that specific sky-fairy. Many individual Churches have charitable status (to avoid taxation), despite The Church of England as a whole sitting on £9.5 Billion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_religious_organizations). The Church Of England is the Official State Religion of England. Doesn't really look like what you have suggested, does it? All The Best So? We do not have Christians storming theatres now or arson attacking publishing houses or searching for teachers or writers so that they can cut their heads off. Islam creates problems for us in proportion much greater than their numbers would suggest they should, as to a lesser extent do Sikhs for plays and community halls. Christians are generally a peaceful lot now and it is the here and now that is the issue. Your freedom of speech is not curtailed by Christians using threats or intimidation, it is a different tale for Muslims. Most religious buildings and meeting houses have charitable status we could remove charitable status from them all, I have no issue with that. There are many people for a multitude of different reasons have input into the laws of the land. The Lords may be an anachronism in many respects the problem is that no one can figure out how better to replace or modify it, Blair managed a bit but that has created cronyism in spades. The MCB had the ear of government and guess what they could not stop themselves being what is effectively Islamic and lost that ear.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 17, 2024 16:11:29 GMT
Well that is obviously bunk - in the 1950's 90% of the population of Israel was Jewish - now that is down to 75%. If the Jews are trying to exterminate the non-Jews they are not very good at it.Tell that to the 30,000 plus dead Gazans. Oh wait, Israel killed them all, you can't. All The Best Poke the bear and.....
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