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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2024 15:18:32 GMT
I'm no longer sure. I used to love the fact that in my younger days (Not slavery or empire, I'm not that old) British were known for playing fair and helping others. That's all gone now, money is our god and helping others is measured on political or economic return, not doing what's right. Further we are fast becoming like those races we once despised who blamed minority groups for the ills facing their country instead of stepping up and helping. The first time I ever truly felt ashamed of my country was in the run up to the Iraq War when Blair utterly debased both us and himself with his cringeworthy toadying up to America for all the world to see, with no sense of shame whatsoever. As for now, how can any good person be anything but ashamed at a nation with homeless on our streets, public services falling apart, people having to pull their own teeth out for lack of a dentist, more working people in poverty than out of work, the scourge of malnutrition starting to stalk the land, food banks all over the place, corruption in high office on a scale not seen in living memory, most politicians blatant liars it seems as well. We see them lying on TV. They know they are lying. We know they are lying. They know we know they are lying. And the do it anyway. And we still vote for them anyway. Part of our legislative system is made up of appointees and cronies, the other part is elected by a hugely disproportional system. Most of us have lost confidence in being heard under this system and suspect with good reason that the powers that be do not give a shit what we think or want as long as they can hoodwink the small minority who make up floating voters in marginal seats, the only ones whose views they care about. Work in this country has long since ceased to be the route to prosperity, just a necessity to even survive. The youth see little positive in their future anymore, with good reason. Most will never own a home, at least not until they inherit the one their grandparents brought. Assuming said grandparents have not had to sell it to finance dementia care. And we have an electorate so stupid that they are taken in by the shite spouted by an obvious narcissist and charlatan like Johnson. How can I possibly be proud of my country or it's people today? And anyone who spends as much time reading about history as I do would know that though there were positives, there is much to be ashamed of there too, from the Amritsar massacre to the Irish Potato famine, and from the repression in Kenya to the appalling conditions in concentration camps in the Boer War. Even our British Empire was with the partial exception of the white dominions an exercise in repression, brutality and torture. And even in the white dominions, the native populations suffered terribly. Brutalities used to repress recalcitrant populations included collective punishment on entire towns, bulldozing of dwellings, mine clearance by forcing lorry loads of prisoners to drive in front, resulting in most of them being blown to bits, concentration camps, deliberate starvation, sometimes to death, of detainees, blowing people apart with cannons, burning them alive, flogging them to death, beating them to death, barbaric tortures. Most of this was known at the highest level, the only concerns being to protect the "security" forces from legal sanctions. In a book I have just read about the unvarnished history of the British Empire, one such British operative in Kenya described his arrival at the interrogation of a suspect. He described matter of factly how the suspect already had one eye hanging out of it's socket whilst both his ears had been cut off. He himself then cut the victim's balls off. In every case when the British finally left a colony they spent much time beforehand burning incriminating evidence.. Present or past, it is hard for a moral person to be proud of this country.
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Post by sandypine on Feb 29, 2024 15:20:33 GMT
I think this is a way over-complicated theory when placed against the obvious. For instance, why did 'scapegoating' suddenly start working when it hadn't before? The financial crisis was far from the first crisis the UK has experienced. The obvious answer is simple enough - when people are faced with more of what they don't want, they become annoyed and have a focus on that issue and are more prone to connecting the dots. Your reliance on polling in this context is silly - another poster here will tell that when presented in isolation and without prompting, the BNP's policies are actually surprisingly popular. A poll tends to get you variable answers depending on all sorts of factors in presentation and wording. My prediction is you will continue to ignore the obvious because it suits you and my advice to responsible minority groups in the UK is to stop supporting mass immigration. So why is it after record levels of net migration recorded in 2022 immigration has slid down the table of concerns for the electorate? Historically in almost every general election result in the last 60 years the winners and the runners up have had policies that could clearly be described as strict control of immigration, no party had a stated policy of increasing immigration. So controlled immigration within low numbers has always been a vote winner when it is stated clearly by those seeking that vote. The wishes of the electorate have been broadly ignored for 60 years and very widely ignored after 1997 by all governments. If something slides down a table as a concern that does not mean one ignores it it is still a concern. If you put shopping top of your list of must dos then if it slipped to number 4 you would not ignore it it would still be a must do, or in the case of electorate concerns still a concern.
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Post by Bentley on Feb 29, 2024 15:32:48 GMT
I'm no longer sure. I used to love the fact that in my younger days (Not slavery or empire, I'm not that old) British were known for playing fair and helping others. That's all gone now, money is our god and helping others is measured on political or economic return, not doing what's right. Further we are fast becoming like those races we once despised who blamed minority groups for the ills facing their country instead of stepping up and helping. The first time I ever truly felt ashamed of my country was in the run up to the Iraq War when Blair utterly debased both us and himself with his cringeworthy toadying up to America for all the world to see, with no sense of shame whatsoever. As for now, how can any good person be anything but ashamed at a nation with homeless on our streets, public services falling apart, people having to pull their own teeth out for lack of a dentist, more working people in poverty than out of work, the scourge of malnutrition starting to stalk the land, food banks all over the place, corruption in high office on a scale not seen in living memory, most politicians blatant liars it seems as well. We see them lying on TV. They know they are lying. We know they are lying. They know we know they are lying. And the do it anyway. And we still vote for them anyway. Part of our legislative system is made up of appointees and cronies, the other part is elected by a hugely disproportional system. Most of us have lost confidence in being heard under this system and suspect with good reason that the powers that be do not give a shit what we think or want as long as they can hoodwink the small minority who make up floating voters in marginal seats, the only ones whose views they care about. Work in this country has long since ceased to be the route to prosperity, just a necessity to even survive. The youth see little positive in their future anymore, with good reason. Most will never own a home, at least not until they inherit the one their grandparents brought. Assuming said grandparents have not had to sell it to finance dementia care. And we have an electorate so stupid that they are taken in by the shite spouted by an obvious narcissist and charlatan like Johnson. How can I possibly be proud of my country or it's people today? And anyone who spends as much time reading about history as I do would know that though there were positives, there is much to be ashamed of there too, from the Amritsar massacre to the Irish Potato famine, and from the repression in Kenya to the appalling conditions in concentration camps in the Boer War. Even our British Empire was with the partial exception of the white dominions an exercise in repression, brutality and torture. And even in the white dominions, the native populations suffered terribly. Brutalities used to repress recalcitrant populations included collective punishment on entire towns, bulldozing of dwellings, mine clearance by forcing lorry loads of prisoners to drive in front, resulting in most of them being blown to bits, concentration camps, deliberate starvation, sometimes to death, of detainees, blowing people apart with cannons, burning them alive, flogging them to death, beating them to death, barbaric tortures. Most of this was known at the highest level, the only concerns being to protect the "security" forces from legal sanctions. In a book I have just read about the unvarnished history of the British Empire, one such British operative in Kenya described his arrival at the interrogation of a suspect. He described matter of factly how the suspect already had one eye hanging out of it's socket whilst both his ears had been cut off. He himself then cut the victim's balls off. In every case when the British finally left a colony they spent much time beforehand burning incriminating evidence.. Present or past, it is hard for a moral person to be proud of this country. Oppressing and exploiting the weak seems to be a human trait , not just a British one . So in that context I don’t share that view. If you asked me if I was proud to be a human then I would probably would share it .
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Post by happyhornet on Feb 29, 2024 17:28:22 GMT
So why is it after record levels of net migration recorded in 2022 immigration has slid down the table of concerns for the electorate? Your reliance on polling in this context is silly - another poster here will tell that when presented in isolation and without prompting, the BNP's policies are actually surprisingly popular. A poll tends to get you variable answers depending on all sorts of factors in presentation and wording. My prediction is you will continue to ignore the obvious because it suits you and my advice to responsible minority groups in the UK is to stop supporting mass immigration. Record levels of immigration are a fact as are election results for those parties with the harshest anti-immigration policies. Are you suggesting that the electorate are not influenced by the MSM?
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Post by Orac on Feb 29, 2024 17:48:04 GMT
Your reliance on polling in this context is silly - another poster here will tell that when presented in isolation and without prompting, the BNP's policies are actually surprisingly popular. A poll tends to get you variable answers depending on all sorts of factors in presentation and wording. My prediction is you will continue to ignore the obvious because it suits you and my advice to responsible minority groups in the UK is to stop supporting mass immigration. Record levels of immigration are a fact as are election results for those parties with the harshest anti-immigration policies. Are you suggesting that the electorate are not influenced by the MSM? No, But the MSM on the whole is supportive of immigration. There are detractors, but the balance is pro. Your other 'small party' point was already dealt with.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 29, 2024 18:11:24 GMT
Your reliance on polling in this context is silly - another poster here will tell that when presented in isolation and without prompting, the BNP's policies are actually surprisingly popular. A poll tends to get you variable answers depending on all sorts of factors in presentation and wording. My prediction is you will continue to ignore the obvious because it suits you and my advice to responsible minority groups in the UK is to stop supporting mass immigration. Record levels of immigration are a fact as are election results for those parties with the harshest anti-immigration policies. Are you suggesting that the electorate are not influenced by the MSM? The electorate keep voting for parties promising lower immigration - that those parties ignore that vote and allow ever higher immigration does not mean that the people agree.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 29, 2024 18:28:31 GMT
I'm no longer sure. I used to love the fact that in my younger days (Not slavery or empire, I'm not that old) British were known for playing fair and helping others. That's all gone now, money is our god and helping others is measured on political or economic return, not doing what's right. Further we are fast becoming like those races we once despised who blamed minority groups for the ills facing their country instead of stepping up and helping. The British traditions are still evident in my little patch of England. We still have churches in this town.
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Post by happyhornet on Feb 29, 2024 18:32:58 GMT
Record levels of immigration are a fact as are election results for those parties with the harshest anti-immigration policies. Are you suggesting that the electorate are not influenced by the MSM? No, But the MSM on the whole is supportive of immigration. There are detractors, but the balance is pro. Your other 'small party' point was already dealt with. Are they? The Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, The Sun, Sunday Sun, Telegraph, The Times, The Sunday Times, The Express, GB News, Talk TV are all pro immigration are they?
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Post by happyhornet on Feb 29, 2024 18:33:31 GMT
Record levels of immigration are a fact as are election results for those parties with the harshest anti-immigration policies. Are you suggesting that the electorate are not influenced by the MSM? The electorate keep voting for parties promising lower immigration - that those parties ignore that vote and allow ever higher immigration does not mean that the people agree. Doesn't mean people have always hated immigration and immigrants either.
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Post by sandypine on Feb 29, 2024 18:38:26 GMT
The electorate keep voting for parties promising lower immigration - that those parties ignore that vote and allow ever higher immigration does not mean that the people agree. Doesn't mean people have always hated immigration and immigrants either. No one has ever said that they do. What they have said is those coming to live here should be controlled at workable levels for a multitude of reasons most of them sound and sensible. If you control party goers to a venue it does not mean you hate them it just means that there are consequences of too many people in a particular place that is sought to be controlled.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 29, 2024 18:39:04 GMT
The electorate keep voting for parties promising lower immigration - that those parties ignore that vote and allow ever higher immigration does not mean that the people agree. Doesn't mean people have always hated immigration and immigrants either. They don't hate immigration - they just want a (lot) less of it.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 29, 2024 20:07:35 GMT
I'm no longer sure. I used to love the fact that in my younger days (Not slavery or empire, I'm not that old) British were known for playing fair and helping others. That's all gone now, money is our god and helping others is measured on political or economic return, not doing what's right. Further we are fast becoming like those races we once despised who blamed minority groups for the ills facing their country instead of stepping up and helping. I don’t know about gone now it went a while ago when Blair wanted to play cowboys and Indians with his mate Bush and that was all dressed up as helping people,well it helped Blair’s wallet and fed his ego and brought instability to the Middle East and upsurge of IS which lasts to this day. Yes this country did have a reputation for fairness and helping others but don’t blame the ordinary people because the ills of this country are not down to them but to a succession of politicians with more of an eye on selling this country out and the economic,political and social disaster of unfettered immigration. Thats not down to the people of this country but someone and his ilk mentioned earler. There's that, its someone else's fault again.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 29, 2024 20:18:51 GMT
If the way a country is run conforms (roughly) to the aggregate atmosphere / expectations / values of the community, then it will be at ease with itself. The problem the uk has is that it is governed by an uncountable clique who run things increasingly in total opposition to the aggregate atmosphere and values of the people. They are opening up a divide and they show no sign of relenting. Is this how it happens. The unaccountable clique run the country for their own ends. They promote the idea that the blame for your woes lies with minority groups and foreigners to divert it from themselves. Next I guess comes a popularist whipping up hatred of the minorities and foreigners and telling you that you deserve better. Next comes persecution, concentration camps, refugees, war, death. Hitler springs to mind.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 29, 2024 20:29:23 GMT
What about people who don't have a similar world view to you? I can’t be proud to stand with them by default If I don’t know exactly what their world view or culture is. That’s why I posted those words …. That's how they engineer the divides. They imply differences and exaggerate them. The only cure is to mix and talk. Sometimes its shocking, mostly its reassuring that they think just like you do. Shocking. I did a job (25 years ago) for a Bangladeshi guy who basically had a slave girl who he openly struck in front of me. I told him if he did it again I would knock his teeth out. Equally I know a lovely Indian guy who would do anything for anyone and worries about how to care for his mum just as would you and I. And I employ dozens of Muslims that you would never know were Muslims.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 29, 2024 20:33:34 GMT
Election results show that political parties with the most hostile policies towards immigration have made little or no significant electoral impact. You know perfectly well that doesn't add up. The failure of small parties in our system isn't an indicator of unpopular policies. Small parties can have popular policies, but a voter has to weigh this against the likelihood of him wasting a vote The conservatives have pledged repeatedly to massively cut immigration and been re-elected several times in a row with that pledge. They will likely be ousted in the next election partially because they wont do so and it has become obvious to everyone they wont.Agreed. I can think of no reason why they would promise such a thing unless they thought the public wanted it.
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