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Post by see2 on Feb 19, 2024 9:53:52 GMT
Obviously, apart from personal opinions, no one knows the actual answer to that question. If there was nothing to begin with, a God would have to start by creating itself, out of nothing. Hmm. That's a slightly different question. The question is really do you think the universe that we live in was created, or came from nothing? You are made up of seven billion billion billion atoms that decide to hang around together, can that really be as a result of enough random events happening over billions of years? BTW I don't believe in organised religion, partly because I think humans will evolve into something else given time. Yet mathematics will stay the same, which suggests other things at work. If it was created, that implies an almighty powerful creator in control, a God may be? Neither a god or a creator of the universe could come from nothing. It seems that the only answer is that something was always there. The what, whys or how remain unknown, and may never be known. Do you have a reason for asking for opinions on this? I remember a thought I had many many years ago, which didn't have the answer but might have been a pointer to the imaginations of the human brain. Following the thought triggered by the saying that big fleas have have little fleas on their backs. I thought the universe might just be a scientific experiment that went wrong in some gigantic laboratory.
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 19, 2024 10:24:46 GMT
Do you have a reason for asking for opinions on this? I have noticed a trend amongst scientists. For years it seemed like science and god were not compatible. Now I'm seeing a lot of scientists openly saying that idea might be wrong. Maybe they were denying the possible existence of a creator as that was the trend, so maybe they have actually changed their mind, who knows. I can understand people rejecting organised religion. I was brought up a Catholic and I think it is a load of shite. However, I am still open to "something" creating the universe we live in. Simulation theory and your idea of a science experiment would both require a creator, just not in the biblical sense. Maybe we will know someday, maybe our creator left a message that you have to reach x amount of intelligence / understanding to find.
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Post by oracle75 on Feb 19, 2024 11:04:27 GMT
Einstein constructed the now accepted truth that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. The last element of that equation is a constant. What it does say is that if you want energy ( in any form) you need mass. Today we get energy from splitting atoms we know the mass of, and we destroy whole cities. Now imagine almost infinite mass and the energy that would create if it began to collide with each other. What was created wasnt the rocks and gasses we see today. What was released were the forces like gravity (which relies on mass ) that created the rocks and gasses etc over tens of millions of years. THe question of expansion will be better understood when scientists understand dark matter.
There are ideas about what was there before the Big Bang. I prefer the idea of there being vibrating strings of those forces and some sort of wobble in their behaviour that destroyed the balance they had before. I also think whatever exists, has always existed in some form. Otherwise nothing would exist. We know that a perfect vacuum cannot exist and remain stable forever.
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Post by piglet on Feb 19, 2024 12:17:59 GMT
Ive only just caught up with this. In the 1970s there was a science programme called the world around us, it had a programme on how the earth came to be scientifically. To cut a long story short, when you take into account the hostility of the Universe, the chances of this world existing are so remote as to be impossible. Countless things need to be just right, if just one of these things is off, even by a tiny amount, the earth would not exist as it is.
I am a believer, no problem, i think science has proven that absolutely evereything is part of a whole, Einstein called it spooky action at a distance. Everything you do makes a difference, what you do, even think. Killing that fly, cheating someone or stealing......noted. By you, the universe. Its not seperate.
Its just about what you call it, God, Bob, maybe Raquel, to answer the question, a resounding yes. I grew up a catholic, wot a pile of sh ite. Ancient religions were created for an ancient mind. I pray, i talk to the universe like hes a mate, and he talks back, i ask, he, she it, provides, proven over and over, your subconscious is the link to the stars.
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Post by Totheleft on Feb 19, 2024 12:24:30 GMT
I was surprised to learn that 25% - 33% (depending on the source) of scientists believe the universe was created, rather than just appeared from nothing. As a result, I went down the YouTube rabbit hole, read articles online, and noticed that atheist arguments seem to mostly revolve around the rejection of organised religion. I listened to some scientists argue that mathematics feels to them like an instruction manual on the universe, and if that is the case who created the manual? I thought I was an atheist, but now I am not so sure. I think organised religion is made up mumbo jumbo designed to control people, but the idea of a creator can be separate from that. One thing is for sure, thinking about this makes my brain hurts! Did something create the universe, or did the universe appear from nothing? (This isn't a who is right question, christians, muslims, hindus etc or atheists) You are what termed has agnostic I believe
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Post by Totheleft on Feb 19, 2024 12:27:08 GMT
I was surprised to learn that 25% - 33% (depending on the source) of scientists believe the universe was created, rather than just appeared from nothing. As a result, I went down the YouTube rabbit hole, read articles online, and noticed that atheist arguments seem to mostly revolve around the rejection of organised religion. I listened to some scientists argue that mathematics feels to them like an instruction manual on the universe, and if that is the case who created the manual? I thought I was an atheist, but now I am not so sure. I think organised religion is made up mumbo jumbo designed to control people, but the idea of a creator can be separate from that. One thing is for sure, thinking about this makes my brain hurts! Did something create the universe, or did the universe appear from nothing? (This isn't a who is right question, christians, muslims, hindus etc or atheists) My own personal view Dave is that the big bang theory seems more likely....I am also an atheist BTW...
Big Bang Cosmology....
So you reject a living God created something. But believe something was created out of nothing. Very interesting.
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Post by Totheleft on Feb 19, 2024 12:31:48 GMT
I'm a believer in a creator. I don't have any problem with it at all. Theories are one thing, but they are theories. Well as someone said each to their own and that’s how it should be. Apparently though you can’t sing religious stuff outside church grounds,not in London anyway you might get arrested (worlds gone mad) I've explained this on that thread It Could be seen has evangelism you need police permission to do that Or Busking you need a licence or anyone could turn up
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Post by Totheleft on Feb 19, 2024 12:34:46 GMT
I think atheism is a social / identity thing and, to a large degree, so is religion. Are people really, really atheists? I have my doubts. I was never really an 'atheist in my heart' even when i claimed to be one. My family are in the main quite religious I’m not,my old dad was brought up strict Methodist he joined the forces and had to kill people and they tried to kill him. He always said you only live once and when you’re dead you’re dead that’s it there’s nothing so make the best of and I believe that too, but he did say always try to do what’s right and I try my best but don’t always succeed. Did your dad die a Methodist? Strange view to have after death if he did
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Post by Totheleft on Feb 19, 2024 12:39:10 GMT
I'm a believer in a creator. I don't have any problem with it at all. Theories are one thing, but they are theories. I have no issue with anyone believing whatever they want to belive. But, yes there's always a but lol... As an intelligent person how do you square the 'six days of creation', do you really think a god made everything in six days? Also, science says Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet the bible says it's 6000 years old. I appreciate religion brings some people such as yourself, a modicum of comfort and there's nothing wrong with that. But is there a difference between someone who goes to church because he enjoys being a part of the club, and someone who implicitly believes the bible and that science is wrong. If you look into it 6 days in the Bible could mean over a period of time. And the earth age theory like all creation theory change over time It's not a reable Science
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Post by wapentake on Feb 19, 2024 13:29:16 GMT
My family are in the main quite religious I’m not,my old dad was brought up strict Methodist he joined the forces and had to kill people and they tried to kill him. He always said you only live once and when you’re dead you’re dead that’s it there’s nothing so make the best of and I believe that too, but he did say always try to do what’s right and I try my best but don’t always succeed. Did your dad die a Methodist? Strange view to have after death if he did Not quite sure what you’re on about TTL he was brought up a Methodist and soon as he became adult ditched it so no he didn’t die a Methodist he was an atheist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2024 16:28:00 GMT
I have no issue with anyone believing whatever they want to belive. But, yes there's always a but lol... As an intelligent person how do you square the 'six days of creation', do you really think a god made everything in six days? Also, science says Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet the bible says it's 6000 years old. I appreciate religion brings some people such as yourself, a modicum of comfort and there's nothing wrong with that. But is there a difference between someone who goes to church because he enjoys being a part of the club, and someone who implicitly believes the bible and that science is wrong. If you look into it 6 days in the Bible could mean over a period of time. And the earth age theory like all creation theory change over time It's not a reliable Science I think the main obstacle to people believing 6 day creation is that they find it difficult to believe it could be done. However, we are talking about a miraculous creation by speaking words so it makes little difference whether it was done in a day, a year or 1000 years. However Genesis keeps saying "The evening and the morning were the first, second, third day, etc. which means a 24 hour day. We could discuss whether time is constant as God could contract or expand time. Who knows?
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 20, 2024 3:00:10 GMT
If you look into it 6 days in the Bible could mean over a period of time. And the earth age theory like all creation theory change over time It's not a reliable Science I think the main obstacle to people believing 6 day creation is that they find it difficult to believe it could be done. However, we are talking about a miraculous creation by speaking words so it makes little difference whether it was done in a day, a year or 1000 years. However Genesis keeps saying "The evening and the morning were the first, second, third day, etc. which means a 24 hour day. We could discuss whether time is constant as God could contract or expand time. Who knows? A day is just how long a planet takes to rotate, if there was no Earth then there would be no days to measure. Also, a "day" is not a fixed length of time. The rate the Earth spin is slowing down. Go back to the early days of the Earth and a day was 10 hours. ie bible stories are man-made fiction.
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Post by Orac on Feb 20, 2024 8:23:19 GMT
iirc god split the 'light from the dark and the light he called day' happened on the first day. By the end of the first day, god had invented days.
Technically speaking that first day might be any length of time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2024 12:37:44 GMT
iirc god split the 'light from the dark and the light he called day' happened on the first day. By the end of the first day, god had invented days. Technically speaking that first day might be any length of time. Assuming God is outside of the universe then the passage of time may well be different, since he's not part of the spacetime inflation. Yeah, it's a lame idea, but it's actually something some fundamentalists have tried to peddle with their understanding of relativity. After all, how can something come from nothing? Of course, one could also say that something can come from nothing from a quantum undetermined state, where something is true, false or both (big boomage). Either way, we won't ever know. Personally, I find questioning our ego-driven existence is more fun.
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Post by Orac on Feb 20, 2024 13:10:05 GMT
I think the notion that nothing can come from nothing is a bit more powerful than is given credit. 'A quantum fluctuation' is fine as an argument when your starting point is not truly nothing. It bends the mind, which is why its fun
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