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Post by Bentley on Feb 14, 2024 22:10:19 GMT
Some athiests are anti theists.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 22:11:19 GMT
I am not an atheist in the sense of believing in no spiritual dimension, or believing that material reality as we can see and measure it is all there is. I think there is an entire spiritual realm overlapping our physical one, and that the part of us and of all living things that we might call a soul is part of that spirit realm.
However I am not an adherent of any organised religion and think every organised religion is full of bunkum and nonsense. And yet I do not entirely dismiss them either. For though clouded and obscured my much that is clearly nonsensical and can only be understood as allegory at best, most if not all organised religions do I think contain within them kernels of deep truths.
And in my inner musings at times I am finding myself struck by all the apparent climatical, medical, social, political, and economic calamities we seem to be increasingly facing and often bringing upon ourselves all over the world, and how this resonates with the biblical end of days prophesies. Certainly, whenever I have raised this with Christian believers, many seem convinced we are in those days, and have quoted things at me that do seem to resonate with what is happening. For example only last week in work I was chatting with a customer about this who turned out to be a believer, and she told me that it was prophesied that the seasons would no longer be recognised and would be all over the place, something about being unable to tell one season from another. An exaggeration of the current situation for sure but recognisable.
I do find myself increasingly wondering if the biblical end of days prophesies also contain some rather large kernels of truth.
For a while now I have intended to look into this further, but never seem to find the time.
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Post by Orac on Feb 14, 2024 22:17:51 GMT
Sure - that's true, but it doesn't really work the other way around. If i have no belief in something, I need not have any strong opinion either way - i just don't have a beliefFor me, expressing an absence of belief doesn't quite capture being in a state of indecision but open to believing something. Language is vague stuff but this seems to me to be wrong. If you are in a state of indecision then you have an absence of belief
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 22:23:21 GMT
I have no issue with anyone believing whatever they want to believe. But, yes there's always a but lol... As an intelligent person how do you square the 'six days of creation', do you really think a god made everything in six days? Also, science says Earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet the bible says it's 6000 years old. I appreciate religion brings some people such as yourself, a modicum of comfort and there's nothing wrong with that. But is there a difference between someone who goes to church because he enjoys being a part of the club, and someone who implicitly believes the bible and that science is wrong. Don't patronise me. Yes, I believe God did the creation in 6 days. Can you prove the 6 days of creation did not happen? Nowhere does the Bible say the Earth is 6000 years old, I told you that in a previous thread and you obviously didn't take that one in. The notion that the Earth and the whole of creation was created in just 6 days is such obvious nonsense, that it undermines any temptation I might have to become a true believer when Christians spout this. For one thing there is a wealth of evidence that suggests that the universe is well over 13 billion years old at least, whilst our Sun is only 5 billion years old. the Earth only about 4.5 billion years old. There is evidence to suggest that microbial life came into being very early on but that complex multicellular beings able to walk on land only appeared in the last few hundred million years, whilst our own species has only been around for maybe two or three hundred thousand years at most, our pre-human hominid ancestors a few million. Clearly these are much wider timescales than 6 days. Devout believers who might have some hope of making me sit up and listen tend to undermine their plausibility entirely when they believe something so obviously untrue according to all the evidence. True deeper truths do need to be acknowledged and understood I think, but they need to be fully consistent with material reality around us or they will just be nonsense.
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Post by Ripley on Feb 14, 2024 22:26:43 GMT
For me, expressing an absence of belief doesn't quite capture being in a state of indecision but open to believing something. Language is vague stuff but this seems to me to be wrong. If you are in a state of indecision then you have an absence of belief It's a question of degree. You can be open to persuasion or not. If you haven't yet decided what you believe and are open to persuasion about a belief in god, you're not an atheist, you're an agnostic, ie, you're taking a position of not knowing vs a position of believing in no gods. Look at the etymology of the word. A-gnosis literally means un- or not-knowing.
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Post by Bentley on Feb 14, 2024 22:28:35 GMT
Don't patronise me. Yes, I believe God did the creation in 6 days. Can you prove the 6 days of creation did not happen? Nowhere does the Bible say the Earth is 6000 years old, I told you that in a previous thread and you obviously didn't take that one in. The notion that the Earth and the whole of creation was created in just 6 days is such obvious nonsense, that it undermines any temptation I might have to become a true believer when Christians spout this. For one thing there is a wealth of evidence that suggests that the universe is well over 13 billion years old at least, whilst our Sun is only 5 billion years old. the Earth only about 4.5 billion years old. There is evidence to suggest that microbial life came into being very early on but that complex multicellular beings able to walk on land only appeared in the last few hundred million years, whilst our own species has only been around for maybe two or three hundred thousand years at most, our pre-human hominid ancestors a few million. Clearly these are much wider timescales than 6 days. Devout believers who might have some hope of making me sit up and listen tend to undermine their plausibility entirely when they believe something so obviously untrue according to all the evidence. True deeper truths do need to be acknowledged and understood I think, but they need to be fully consistent with material reality around us or they will just be nonsense. Unless we are a computer simulation.
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Post by Orac on Feb 14, 2024 22:38:02 GMT
Language is vague stuff but this seems to me to be wrong. If you are in a state of indecision then you have an absence of belief It's a question of degree. You can be open to persuasion or not. If you haven't yet decided what you believe and are open to persuasion about a belief in god, you're not an atheist, you're an agnostic, ie, you're taking a position of not knowing vs a position of believing in no gods. Look at the etymology of the word. A-gnosis literally means un- or not-knowing. Agnostic - without knowledge. Someone who claims a lack of knowledge or (more usually) that we cannot know. It is possible to be an agnostic who believes in god btw. Atheist - Without god (or without belief in god.). This would include someone who hasn't decided or is open to persuasion. Technically an agnostic can be either an atheist or a theist
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 14, 2024 22:38:41 GMT
I can see that several of you are conforming to my original point. You are telling us that you don't believe in a god because you don't believe parts of the bible.
Forget the bible, forget comfort in there being an almighty, forget organised religion.
Do you think the universe was created by something, or do you think it came from nothing?
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Post by Orac on Feb 14, 2024 22:39:18 GMT
The notion that the Earth and the whole of creation was created in just 6 days is such obvious nonsense, that it undermines any temptation I might have to become a true believer when Christians spout this. For one thing there is a wealth of evidence that suggests that the universe is well over 13 billion years old at least, whilst our Sun is only 5 billion years old. the Earth only about 4.5 billion years old. There is evidence to suggest that microbial life came into being very early on but that complex multicellular beings able to walk on land only appeared in the last few hundred million years, whilst our own species has only been around for maybe two or three hundred thousand years at most, our pre-human hominid ancestors a few million. Clearly these are much wider timescales than 6 days. Devout believers who might have some hope of making me sit up and listen tend to undermine their plausibility entirely when they believe something so obviously untrue according to all the evidence. True deeper truths do need to be acknowledged and understood I think, but they need to be fully consistent with material reality around us or they will just be nonsense. Unless we are a computer simulation. Yes - the religious frame makes all the argument about available evidence pretty moot. According to that frame, we are in god's VR
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Post by Orac on Feb 14, 2024 22:52:46 GMT
Do you think the universe was created by something, or do you think it came from nothing? Do you find the dichotomy quite suggestive? It suggests to me that there is a great deal we haven't scratched the surface of - or that we may be looking in entirely the wrong place, or have things upside down or inside out. However, that's all very vague and unhelpful. I have seen atheists who fancy their hand in cosmology skating precariously over this issue. They actually have my sympathy - at least they try to make sense.
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Post by Ripley on Feb 14, 2024 22:54:32 GMT
It's a question of degree. You can be open to persuasion or not. If you haven't yet decided what you believe and are open to persuasion about a belief in god, you're not an atheist, you're an agnostic, ie, you're taking a position of not knowing vs a position of believing in no gods. Look at the etymology of the word. A-gnosis literally means un- or not-knowing. Agnostic - without knowledge. Someone who claims a lack of knowledge or (more usually) that we cannot know. It is possible to be an agnostic who believes in god btw. Atheist - Without god (or without belief in god.). This would include someone who hasn't decided or is open to persuasion. Technically an agnostic can be either an atheist or a theistMy Attic Greek teacher would disagree.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 14, 2024 23:08:15 GMT
The only way biblical texts make sense is if they are a series of allegories. They can even be considered divine with some mental gymnastics. Ditto most other religions. Yes and because the language was only basic so they had to describe things in what was familiar to the reader of the time. Likewise in China the language is very old, hence for dolphin we have "sea pig". We also have "fire chickens" for Christmas.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2024 23:08:20 GMT
I can see that several of you are conforming to my original point. You are telling us that you don't believe in a god because you don't believe parts of the bible. Forget the bible, forget comfort in there being an almighty, forget organised religion. Do you think the universe was created by something, or do you think it came from nothing? I believe that the universe has a purpose. That it was created by a life force that permeates the entire universe on the spiritual realm. You could call this God but I do not think this force can be understood in terms of human personality, and that any consciousness it may possess is so far beyond our understanding that we cannot really know it. I believe that the purpose of life is to serve as material vessels through which the spirit realm gradually evolves higher spiritual beings, in a process which will take countless billions of years. I believe the spirit realm needs to interact with matter to do this which is why the universe was created in the first place, and life is where matter and spirit come together, the latter making up our souls. Successive incarnations of an immortal but spiritually evolving soul over countless aeons must be a part of the process. So yes I believe in an all encompassing spiritual life force that is in everything and everyone everywhere. That this force acted as a creator, and that it's purpose is to evolve higher spiritual beings using matter in the form of life. But my concept is a million miles removed from the Old Testament version of God, jealous and vengeful, casting thunderbolts of wrath down from on high, a bearded tyrant on a throne in heaven. Such a conception of God looks suspiciously human to me, and of a nature far more readily understood as a typical relationship between ruler and ruled in ancient times. And as such - it seems to me - a human construct.
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Post by wapentake on Feb 14, 2024 23:21:38 GMT
I can see that several of you are conforming to my original point. You are telling us that you don't believe in a god because you don't believe parts of the bible. Forget the bible, forget comfort in there being an almighty, forget organised religion. Do you think the universe was created by something, or do you think it came from nothing? It is incomprehensible to the human mind,so god was invented.
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Post by jonksy on Feb 14, 2024 23:25:26 GMT
There is that of course. And also there is a total lack of gravity....I am not sure why a creator would want to exploit those materials as they would not exist until the creation.. if we as humans create or build something it remains static in size... You've never baked a cake or a loaf of bread or worked with puff pastry, then? LOL.....
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