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Post by Vinny on Feb 13, 2024 9:38:33 GMT
The IRA got its weapons largely from the USA, sadly the USA has a voting demographic of citizens who identify with Ireland and are anti-British. You can get bet also they provided cemtex through third parties though would not have been happy with the attack on Thatcher in Brighton. This is why Mitchell was involved in the Good Friday negotiations. AR18's and even a Barrett M82 came from America but again, the flow of those weapons stopped after atrocities even NORAID couldn't excuse. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 13, 2024 10:10:20 GMT
You started the thread and you started the toxic abuse as soon as you realise you'd been caught out posting trash. Says the man who comes on this forum daily posting bitter petulant drivel from his ivory tower. . . . That would be you as evidenced by the rest of your post: You posted a false story and when disproved with facts resorted to abusive comments. It's what you do. |
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Post by dappy on Feb 13, 2024 10:32:37 GMT
Peace in NI in the real world was always going to be messy and sadly always imperfect. Blair delivered that imperfect peace, an imperfect peace overwhelmingly supported by the people in Northern Ireland in a referendum. It is very easy to propose theoretical improvements to the deal reached. Given the balancing act required to get the deal reached over the line, it is highly doubtful that any material "improvements" could have been delivered without killing the deal. Had that have happened, many lives would inevitably have been lost. What did Tony Blair personally do though dappy regarding the GFA ? Perhaps I missed it , but you keep canonising the man for something he played little to no part in , except as being the uk prime minister watching others do the donkey work from afar. You are correct in your first sentence though. The seeds were sown in the mid nineteenth century , when they let the dissenting protestants into the orange order , and used them against their fellow Irish to maintain britians grip on the island. Which didnt work , hence why in 1920 , they fell back to plan b , the ruinous exist strategy of partition. Eventually one way or the other though , there is going to be a border poll ,and the nationalists are going to win. Only then will the healing process begin , until then , the uk is hanging on with its fingernails of a province that should never have been created , while dealing with the sticking plasters people like Blair put on . Labour dont care about Northern Ireland , merely using it as a pawn in their never ending political game of being seen to be self righteous and good for political leverage. If starmer wins the next election , it's going to be interesting watching him deal with Northern Ireland. Will he offer them a border poll? Will he solve the issue of Northern Ireland still being in the eu by throwing the English under a bus and making England BRINO? Im looking forward to watching events unfold. I think you need to put your prejudices to one side, read up objectively about how the gfa was negotiated and whatever you think about the rest of Blair's time in power, I think you will probably begrudgingly acknowledge that the GFA almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Blair. You right if you want to remain counter-factual however. I don't honestly think Northern Ireland ranks highly on the agenda of either UK party. For now Stormont is back up and running. As long as it remains so, I suspect either party would be quite happy to let it carry on. A border poll would simply reopen divisions and potentially create problems. No benefit for UK government in going there unless and until it is unavoidable. Whatever Starmer does with the EU - I suspect openly closer relationship is likely and sensible - it will not be driven by the needs of NI (no votes there) |
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Post by Vinny on Feb 13, 2024 11:04:19 GMT
I remember the RPG attack on the SIS HQ, the Omagh bombing, the lack of disarmament and even today dissident groups are killing people.
More could have been done.
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Post by thomas on Feb 14, 2024 8:15:24 GMT
Says the man who comes on this forum daily posting bitter petulant drivel from his ivory tower. . . . That would be you as evidenced by the rest of your post: You posted a false story and when disproved with facts resorted to abusive comments. It's what you do. sob sob. I let the facts speak for themselves. You entered this thread making some silly pointless virtue signalling post to red rack ham about catholics. your second post was proved wrong almost immediately regarding Downeys get out of jail free card , which collapsed his trial. your third post was defending your lame comments when told by another member about how you dont have a clue what you are talking about , your fifth post a diversion about Downeys `other` convictions. In between relentlessly sneering at forum members , and telling everyone how we dont know what we are talking about while tacitly defending a man who epitomises the very definition of selective justice. It's what you do. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 14, 2024 8:28:11 GMT
What did Tony Blair personally do though dappy regarding the GFA ? Perhaps I missed it , but you keep canonising the man for something he played little to no part in , except as being the uk prime minister watching others do the donkey work from afar. You are correct in your first sentence though. The seeds were sown in the mid nineteenth century , when they let the dissenting protestants into the orange order , and used them against their fellow Irish to maintain britians grip on the island. Which didnt work , hence why in 1920 , they fell back to plan b , the ruinous exist strategy of partition. Eventually one way or the other though , there is going to be a border poll ,and the nationalists are going to win. Only then will the healing process begin , until then , the uk is hanging on with its fingernails of a province that should never have been created , while dealing with the sticking plasters people like Blair put on . Labour dont care about Northern Ireland , merely using it as a pawn in their never ending political game of being seen to be self righteous and good for political leverage. If starmer wins the next election , it's going to be interesting watching him deal with Northern Ireland. Will he offer them a border poll? Will he solve the issue of Northern Ireland still being in the eu by throwing the English under a bus and making England BRINO? Im looking forward to watching events unfold. I think you need to put your prejudices to one side, read up objectively about how the gfa was negotiated and whatever you think about the rest of Blair's time in power, I think you will probably begrudgingly acknowledge that the GFA almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Blair. You right if you want to remain counter-factual however. I don't honestly think Northern Ireland ranks highly on the agenda of either UK party. For now Stormont is back up and running. As long as it remains so, I suspect either party would be quite happy to let it carry on. A border poll would simply reopen divisions and potentially create problems. No benefit for UK government in going there unless and until it is unavoidable. Whatever Starmer does with the EU - I suspect openly closer relationship is likely and sensible - it will not be driven by the needs of NI (no votes there) I am prejudiced about Tony Blair. I can't stand the man , nor his party. However, at least im honest about it. You aren't some impartial commentator either. You are extremely pro Tony Blair and labour , but aren't honest about it. Ive read plenty regarding the GFA , and I fail to see what Blair did that warrants his canonisation. I said to Vinny up the thread negotiations would have happened , with or without new labour being in power. The world was turning against the British , the relentless bad press , and the British elite were coming under massive international pressure to deal with the issues in Northern Ireland. The hot potato simply landed in Blairs lap , as did the issue of Scottish devolution , where similarly he was coming under pressure to do something by the council of Europe. I stand by what I have said through this thread. The idea starmer is going to take power , and make us Scots and northern Irish love Westminster is a fantasy in your head. The border poll is written into the GFA , which your mans government agreed to , and is something you can't dodge forever. Northern Ireland was created out of spite in 1920 , and has been a ticking time bomb handed from prime minister to prime minister ever since. At first , the British elite were secure in their protestant majority sectarian apartheid state , since 2017 , the direction of travel has finally dawned on them. Now they are scrabbling about desperate not to be the prime minister that finally loses the place. The Irish aren't backing down. There was a northern Irish debate in the house of lords in your parliament last night , and lord kilclooney pointed out that out of 800 English peers , only one bothered to turn up. The Irish know you dont care about them , and many in England would happily offload them. I dont think hardcore women like o Neil and Mac Donald are going to be put off a border poll by a wet lettuce like starmer. Throwing crumbs to the northern Irish like this poor old bugger being taken to trial won't stop a border poll . |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 14, 2024 9:34:28 GMT
I think you need to put your prejudices to one side, read up objectively about how the gfa was negotiated and whatever you think about the rest of Blair's time in power, I think you will probably begrudgingly acknowledge that the GFA almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Blair. You right if you want to remain counter-factual however. I don't honestly think Northern Ireland ranks highly on the agenda of either UK party. For now Stormont is back up and running. As long as it remains so, I suspect either party would be quite happy to let it carry on. A border poll would simply reopen divisions and potentially create problems. No benefit for UK government in going there unless and until it is unavoidable. Whatever Starmer does with the EU - I suspect openly closer relationship is likely and sensible - it will not be driven by the needs of NI (no votes there) I am prejudiced about Tony Blair. I can't stand the man , nor his party. However, at least im honest about it. You aren't some impartial commentator either. You are extremely pro Tony Blair and labour , but aren't honest about it. Ive read plenty regarding the GFA , and I fail to see what Blair did that warrants his canonisation. I said to Vinny up the thread negotiations would have happened , with or without new labour being in power. The world was turning against the British , the relentless bad press , and the British elite were coming under massive international pressure to deal with the issues in Northern Ireland. The hot potato simply landed in Blairs lap , as did the issue of Scottish devolution , where similarly he was coming under pressure to do something by the council of Europe. I stand by what I have said through this thread. The idea starmer is going to take power , and make us Scots and northern Irish love Westminster is a fantasy in your head. The border poll is written into the GFA , which your mans government agreed to , and is something you can't dodge forever. Northern Ireland was created out of spite in 1920 , and has been a ticking time bomb handed from prime minister to prime minister ever since. At first , the British elite were secure in their protestant majority sectarian apartheid state , since 2017 , the direction of travel has finally dawned on them. Now they are scrabbling about desperate not to be the prime minister that finally loses the place. The Irish aren't backing down. There was a northern Irish debate in the house of lords in your parliament last night , and lord kilclooney pointed out that out of 800 English peers , only one bothered to turn up. The Irish know you dont care about them , and many in England would happily offload them. I dont think hardcore women like o Neil and Mac Donald are going to be put off a border poll by a wet lettuce like starmer. Throwing crumbs to the northern Irish like this poor old bugger being taken to trial won't stop a border poll . I totally agree and I think that offloading NI would be immensely popular with the English voter.
Most people in England don't really understand the NI situation and, you're right, we don't care. We simply see it as an expensive thorn in our side.
I'd offload NI tomorrow.
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Post by Steve on Feb 14, 2024 11:12:19 GMT
That would be you as evidenced by the rest of your post: You posted a false story and when disproved with facts resorted to abusive comments. It's what you do. sob sob. I let the facts speak for themselves. You entered this thread making some silly pointless virtue signalling post to red rack ham about catholics. your second post was proved wrong almost immediately regarding Downeys get out of jail free card , which collapsed his trial. your third post was defending your lame comments when told by another member about how you dont have a clue what you are talking about , your fifth post a diversion about Downeys `other` convictions. In between relentlessly sneering at forum members , and telling everyone how we dont know what we are talking about while tacitly defending a man who epitomises the very definition of selective justice. It's what you do. Yes of course that must be true - in your head. But that awkward thing called reality keeps getting in the way of you doesn't it. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 14, 2024 11:13:59 GMT
. . . I'd offload NI tomorrow.
Against the will of the majority there. Really? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 14, 2024 11:41:32 GMT
. . . I'd offload NI tomorrow.
Against the will of the majority there. Really? What about the majority here? |
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Post by Steve on Feb 14, 2024 12:38:29 GMT
Against the will of the majority there. Really? What about the majority here? You going to apply that argument to the majority in Russia re Ukraine? Of course not because self determination is about the people actually in the relevant area. And the majority in NI still want to be in the UK. HOWEVER take it down to a district and in some cases county level and many of those would vote to be part of Ireland. And IMHO that's what we should let those districts do. |
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Post by dappy on Feb 14, 2024 12:49:01 GMT
I think you need to put your prejudices to one side, read up objectively about how the gfa was negotiated and whatever you think about the rest of Blair's time in power, I think you will probably begrudgingly acknowledge that the GFA almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Blair. You right if you want to remain counter-factual however. I don't honestly think Northern Ireland ranks highly on the agenda of either UK party. For now Stormont is back up and running. As long as it remains so, I suspect either party would be quite happy to let it carry on. A border poll would simply reopen divisions and potentially create problems. No benefit for UK government in going there unless and until it is unavoidable. Whatever Starmer does with the EU - I suspect openly closer relationship is likely and sensible - it will not be driven by the needs of NI (no votes there) I am prejudiced about Tony Blair. I can't stand the man , nor his party. However, at least im honest about it. You aren't some impartial commentator either. You are extremely pro Tony Blair and labour , but aren't honest about it. Ive read plenty regarding the GFA , and I fail to see what Blair did that warrants his canonisation. I said to Vinny up the thread negotiations would have happened , with or without new labour being in power. The world was turning against the British , the relentless bad press , and the British elite were coming under massive international pressure to deal with the issues in Northern Ireland. The hot potato simply landed in Blairs lap , as did the issue of Scottish devolution , where similarly he was coming under pressure to do something by the council of Europe. I stand by what I have said through this thread. The idea starmer is going to take power , and make us Scots and northern Irish love Westminster is a fantasy in your head. The border poll is written into the GFA , which your mans government agreed to , and is something you can't dodge forever. Northern Ireland was created out of spite in 1920 , and has been a ticking time bomb handed from prime minister to prime minister ever since. At first , the British elite were secure in their protestant majority sectarian apartheid state , since 2017 , the direction of travel has finally dawned on them. Now they are scrabbling about desperate not to be the prime minister that finally loses the place. The Irish aren't backing down. There was a northern Irish debate in the house of lords in your parliament last night , and lord kilclooney pointed out that out of 800 English peers , only one bothered to turn up. The Irish know you dont care about them , and many in England would happily offload them. I dont think hardcore women like o Neil and Mac Donald are going to be put off a border poll by a wet lettuce like starmer. Throwing crumbs to the northern Irish like this poor old bugger being taken to trial won't stop a border poll . I am broadly pro Blair - he was one of our best Prime Ministers in my view but he had weaknesses and he made mistakes - he really should have left the Iraq War to the Americans for example. I am not particularly pro-Labour - I am more Lib Dem or even Green - but do recognise them as a better option than the present shower. Not sure we will agree about the role of Blair in securing (an imperfect) peace in NI. I think he was absolutely integral to the process, you don't. Frankly I think my view is objectively based whereas I think yours is perhaps more ideological. Honestly I don't think your analysis in respect of Northern Ireland is correct. I don't think either the British public or British politicians have an awful lot of interest in NI and I don't think either would lose a lot of sleep if the people of NI were to choose to peacefully reunite with the South. There would be much more emotional resistance to a breakup of the UK losing Scotland or Wales for example. But far more importantly neither the public or the politicians want there to be renewed sectarian issues and violence in NI and I think Westminster politicians fear that is likely perhaps inevitable if we moved towards a border poll. Far better then to seek to kick the can down the road and let the next poor bugger deal with it. |
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Post by Vinny on Feb 14, 2024 12:54:38 GMT
Northern Ireland has only had one referendum on breaking away from the UK and that was 51 years ago. Since that time a lot has changed, not least the demographics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_pollWorth holding another. And if they vote to break away, let them. We don't need Northern Ireland. It's only because they wanted to stay British, we let them, and it cost us a fortune in policing. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 14, 2024 13:29:48 GMT
Northern Ireland has only had one referendum on breaking away from the UK and that was 51 years ago. Since that time a lot has changed, not least the demographics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_pollWorth holding another. And if they vote to break away, let them. We don't need Northern Ireland. It's only because they wanted to stay British, we let them, and it cost us a fortune in policing. Legally (under the GFA) we have to have another one if there's evidence it would so vote. But the evidence still is that they wouldn't. That whole 6 counties idiocy was one of the UK's making and yes it's still an expensive mess but we have to own our own shit. |
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Post by Vinny on Feb 14, 2024 13:38:06 GMT
Opinion polls are unreliable.
The majority in Northern Ireland are now Catholic.
It is worth asking them.
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