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Post by dappy on Feb 12, 2024 14:34:04 GMT
Peace in NI in the real world was always going to be messy and sadly always imperfect. Blair delivered that imperfect peace, an imperfect peace overwhelmingly supported by the people in Northern Ireland in a referendum. It is very easy to propose theoretical improvements to the deal reached. Given the balancing act required to get the deal reached over the line, it is highly doubtful that any material "improvements" could have been delivered without killing the deal. Had that have happened, many lives would inevitably have been lost.
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Post by Vinny on Feb 12, 2024 14:54:24 GMT
The IRA had already concluded that they could not win by violence. What they did, was exploit the cowardice of non military civilian politicians in the Labour party to extort a better deal than they should have got.
Mo Mowlam and Blair, surrendered. They took the work of those who came before, claimed credit for it and pissed it up the wall. Full disarmament was possible. It could have been achieved and had that happened Lyra McKee would still be alive.
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Post by Steve on Feb 12, 2024 14:57:02 GMT
One of the crucial mistakes Blair did, was drop any demand for the IRA to disarm. And it cost Lyra McKee her life. Eh? Disarmament was part and parcel of the GFA and completed for the P-IRA over 10 years before her death. The UVF and UDA however dragged their heels and having no moral principles may well have sold their guns on to the dissidents involved in her murder.
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Post by Vinny on Feb 12, 2024 15:06:41 GMT
From 1998-2001 the Provos spoke of "putting weapons beyond use". They did not hand over weapons to the authorities for destruction. No photographs of weapons being destroyed were taken.
Full disarmament was avoided by the establishment of splinter groups. "The Real IRA", "Continuity IRA", "New IRA", were founded and weapons moved from the Provisional IRA (itself a splinter group from the original IRA) into the inventories of those organisations. The Provisional IRA were able to say "we are no longer armed", that didn't stop the other IRA's suddenly being.
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Post by dappy on Feb 12, 2024 15:18:52 GMT
The IRA had already concluded that they could not win by violence. What they did, was exploit the cowardice of non military civilian politicians in the Labour party to extort a better deal than they should have got. Mo Mowlam and Blair, surrendered. They took the work of those who came before, claimed credit for it and pissed it up the wall. Full disarmament was possible. It could have been achieved and had that happened Lyra McKee would still be alive. You live in a fantasy world Vinny. Blair and the likes of Trimble, McGuiness, Ahern and many others lived in the real world. They made many difficult choices and sacrifices and delivered between them a peace, albeit an imperfect one. I suspect had you been in charge, you would have delivered perfect failure. Not sure this is going anywhere to be honest, so unless you have evidence to back up your (frankly unrealistic) assertions, I think I'll leave it there.
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Post by Vinny on Feb 12, 2024 15:20:04 GMT
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Post by Steve on Feb 12, 2024 15:28:44 GMT
None of which back your supposition
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Post by Vinny on Feb 12, 2024 16:17:24 GMT
Where did the weapons used by splinter groups come from? Easiest hypothesis, P-IRA.
Only P-IRA knew for certain how many weapons they had or where they were. Easy enough to transfer some and still make a symbolic gesture.
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Post by Steve on Feb 12, 2024 17:59:46 GMT
Where did the weapons used by splinter groups come from? Easiest hypothesis, P-IRA. Only P-IRA knew for certain how many weapons they had or where they were. Easy enough to transfer some and still make a symbolic gesture. So you don't know so you'll position a guess as being a fact. It's only a guess and looks like one motivated by your visceral hate of Blair who you seem to illogically want to blame for everything that's ever gone wrong since 1997.
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Post by Vinny on Feb 12, 2024 19:07:46 GMT
Prior to 1987 the Provisional IRA were getting weapons from Libya, including semtex.
Then that year in a very short space of time things changed. One of the first of these big things to change that was the interception of the Eksund by the French. Tons of weapons were captured. It was also revealed just how many weapons had already got through.
The other really big thing was the remembrance day bombing.
Col Gaddafi's regime was disgusted with the IRA and withdrew support.
After that if IRA groups wanted arms, they had to look to existing stocks.
It's no coincidence that the IRA splinter groups were formed during the years P-IRA dragged their heels.
Weapons weren't all destroyed, a lot were transferred to the splinter groups, which are still out there, mostly drug dealing.
The Good Friday Agreement was a cop out, it could have been a lot better. But, weary of decades of war and desperate to look good, Labour surrendered.
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Post by bancroft on Feb 12, 2024 20:24:45 GMT
The IRA got its weapons largely from the USA, sadly the USA has a voting demographic of citizens who identify with Ireland and are anti-British.
You can get bet also they provided cemtex through third parties though would not have been happy with the attack on Thatcher in Brighton.
This is why Mitchell was involved in the Good Friday negotiations.
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Post by thomas on Feb 13, 2024 8:26:09 GMT
dont you play the gullible fool. I started the thread , and I stand by what ive written throughout the thread. selective justice depending on what's politically expedient. You started the thread and you started the toxic abuse as soon as you realise you'd been caught out posting trash. Says the man who comes on this forum daily posting bitter petulant drivel from his ivory tower. You haven't caught anyone out on anything because you still can't get over the fact that a republican got let off the hook because of one of Tony Blairs get out of jail free cards . before we even investigate any of the other approx two hundred get out of jail free cases , where people like IRA gunman Mick burns also hid behind one of Tony Blairs letters which caused chaos in justice being applied to his case. The families of John Downeys Hyde park victims dont care what other crimes downey may have been subsequently convicted of. They want criminal justice for their loved ones , not someone else's , but won't get it because of Tony Blairs `wee mistake`. While you talk about justice on this thread for a despicable crime , let us not forget you are tacitly defending a man , Tony Blair , who has the blood of a million innocent Iraqis on his hands . For another one of his wee mistakes . This old man is being thrown to the dogs because of events half a century ago , when he was sent as a frightened panicky young kid over to a cauldron of hate by your countries politicians who couldnt accept paddy didnt want them ruling his land. Its your politicians who should be in the dock , starting with scum like Blair. You are close to losing the province , which has one foot out the door already. There is no point in throwing this old man under a bus , except of course to save your politicians face , and give clowns like you something to virtue signal about.
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Post by thomas on Feb 13, 2024 8:35:41 GMT
Peace in NI in the real world was always going to be messy and sadly always imperfect. Blair delivered that imperfect peace, an imperfect peace overwhelmingly supported by the people in Northern Ireland in a referendum. It is very easy to propose theoretical improvements to the deal reached. Given the balancing act required to get the deal reached over the line, it is highly doubtful that any material "improvements" could have been delivered without killing the deal. Had that have happened, many lives would inevitably have been lost. What did Tony Blair personally do though dappy regarding the GFA ? Perhaps I missed it , but you keep canonising the man for something he played little to no part in , except as being the uk prime minister watching others do the donkey work from afar. You are correct in your first sentence though. The seeds were sown in the mid nineteenth century , when they let the dissenting protestants into the orange order , and used them against their fellow Irish to maintain britians grip on the island. Which didnt work , hence why in 1920 , they fell back to plan b , the ruinous exist strategy of partition. Eventually one way or the other though , there is going to be a border poll ,and the nationalists are going to win. Only then will the healing process begin , until then , the uk is hanging on with its fingernails of a province that should never have been created , while dealing with the sticking plasters people like Blair put on . Labour dont care about Northern Ireland , merely using it as a pawn in their never ending political game of being seen to be self righteous and good for political leverage. If starmer wins the next election , it's going to be interesting watching him deal with Northern Ireland. Will he offer them a border poll? Will he solve the issue of Northern Ireland still being in the eu by throwing the English under a bus and making England BRINO? Im looking forward to watching events unfold.
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Post by thomas on Feb 13, 2024 8:41:24 GMT
The IRA got its weapons largely from the USA, sadly the USA has a voting demographic of citizens who identify with Ireland and are anti-British. You can get bet also they provided cemtex through third parties though would not have been happy with the attack on Thatcher in Brighton. This is why Mitchell was involved in the Good Friday negotiations. you should read Tim pat coogans book on `the IRA ` Bancroft. He points out the billions in funding that came to the IRA from North America , while points out at the same time , the yanks old enemies , the Russians , sent the KGB to help train IRA men. The world was ganging up on you British at the time , but that was in large part because of the terrible pr Britain was getting . The europeans , the Irish , the yanks , as well as the aforementioned Trimble and labour mo Mowlam did a lot of the donkey work in terms of negotiating. I think personally its time to Draw a line under the whole sorry episode , apologise to the Irish , offer compensation , and start the process for a border poll.
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Post by thomas on Feb 13, 2024 8:49:09 GMT
The Good Friday Agreement was a cop out, it could have been a lot better. But, weary of decades of war and desperate to look good, Labour surrendered. Vinny sorry , I can't stand labour and Blair , but this is just a load of bollocks. Eventually , either a tory or labour prime minister was going to have to deal with Northern Ireland , and it just so happened it was Blairs regime. Thatcher was telling the gullible she wasn't even talking to the ira , while all the time behind the scenes she was negotiating. A heinous terrible crime was committed in 1920 of partition , and your country has been dealing with that fact ever since. Churchill even tried to offload Northern Ireland to devalera at the start of World War Two , in return for the British navy using Irish ports to cross the Atlantic , but the Irish refused to trust him. When people dont want your country ruling their lands , eventually they kick you out. You have something like 65 different cases to see that truth from across the world. Time to grasp the bull by the horns , have a bit of vision , and quietly offload the province while you can still maintain a bit of dignity. One way or the other ,though , Northern Ireland is slipping out of the uk.
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