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Post by johnofgwent on Feb 1, 2024 11:14:45 GMT
Indeed, he did. But I have to ask, did Labour scrap it? Labour immediately reduced it to the lowest level permissable under EU law. It could not be scrapped until we were no longer bound by such laws. Have the Tories scrapped it now? strange that. we can happily stuff the tax on something but having dome so could not remove it because the eu laws don’t allow it… |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 11:18:31 GMT
The fact is that life, laws and social mores change anyway. Our way of life never stays the same. For example, most of us dont go to church anymore but that has bugger all to do with immigrants who are more likely to go than we are, lol At one time we all believed that men should be tough and show no emotion, stiff upper lip and all that jazz. And we had the wife beatings and suicide rates to prove it. At one time it was considered normal for sadist teachers to beat children with bamboo canes, and the fact that so many say it never did them any harm by way of advocating it again is itself proof of the harm it did them. Once upon a time we were riven by class divides, now it is more often age that divides us. Few of our society's deepest changes were wrought by immigrants, unless you include the Romans and Anglo-saxons, and maybe the Danes and Normans. But they all came as conquerors rather than immigrants. Undoubtedly conquerors bring great changes especially in terms of language and political organisation and institutions. Immigrants tend to bring smaller cultural changes which mostly enrich our culture, as for example the Chinese and Indian restaurants and the fact that curry is now one of our favourite national dishes. The issue is not really one of cultural diversity but too many coming here in terms of numbers, and not enough houses or schools or GP surgeries being built for them all. But ask yourself who benefits from that and you begin to address the problem. Who for example benefits from soaring housing costs resulting from too many people coming here and not enough houses being built? And who benefits from the supply of cheap labour? I will give you a clue. It is not the immigrants themselves nor most of the struggling millions born here. It is the owners of property assets and the owners of businesses who are benefiting from it all, the same people who own our media and have our politicians in their pockets. We will not even begin to solve the problem of too many coming here until we recognise who the beneficiaries are and take measures to stop them benefitting. Until then we will only get gimmicks like this Rwanda rubbish. You couldnt get a more obvious gimmick if you placed it in the middle of Trafalgar Square with a massive neon sign saying "Gimmick". But as long as they can keep the sheeple satisfied with such gimmicks, they can keep raking it in whilst we get angry at a bunch of poor saps even worse off and more powerless than we are. Oh come on Steve keeping the sheeple satisfied,are you having a laugh? Who proposed things shouldn’t change of course they do but the level of threat to the normal way of life in this country comes primarily from the Muslim religion. We once had immigration quotas based on race. Are you suggesting we have them again based on religion? If you believe that muslims are coming here in such numbers that they will soon swamp us, you are signing in to far right propaganda. Like all immigrants coming before them they are likely as the generations go by to become an integral part of the dominant culture, and more and more of them will become much more secular or keep their religious beliefs a purely personal affair as most Christians here today do. If this turns out not to be true we can worry about it later. Muslim numbers are never going to be anything more than a minority in the lives of everyone living today, for sure. In spite of far right lies to the contrary. One thing we can and should do and which I have long advocated for breaking down the barriers of religious divides and religious indoctrination, is to ban all faith based schools. No catholic schools. No Church of England schools. No Jewish schools, No Buddhist schools. No Hindu or Sikh schools. And of course no Muslim schools. Instead entirely secular schools which teach all their kids about all religions without proselytising on behalf of any one of them. Any fervent believer of any religion who cannot accept this should fuck off to a country that will accommodate them. Religious indoctrination from a young age is a divisive thing that can stop us all rubbing along peacefully, from forming part of the dominant culture and from espousing increasingly secular values. Perhaps if we enforced secular education for all children here, those muslims bringing their families here but still wishing to indoctrinate their kids would see us as a less attractive option. This would do far more to deter fanatical muslims from coming here with their kids than any stupid gimmick like the Rwanda policy. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 11:19:55 GMT
All industrialised developed nations have citizens who originate from other places, and other parts of the world, its just the nature of things, its how it is. The Italians brough coffee bars, spaghetti houses and family run ice cream businesses, the Caribbeans brought us Reggae, Jerk Chicken and brightened up boring, traditional British Christian worship with their Gospel. I prefer the Multi Cultural way, as opposed to the American Melting Pot way, and I have no problem with the many different cultures that thrive here. To me, it makes life more interesting, and if we never had any immigrants through history, what would we have ?, boiled beef and cabbage. But we've got the recipes now, so why do they need to stay? In most cases today it will be because they are British, having been born here and never having lived anywhere else. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 11:22:01 GMT
Labour immediately reduced it to the lowest level permissable under EU law. It could not be scrapped until we were no longer bound by such laws. Have the Tories scrapped it now? strange that. we can happily stuff the tax on something but having dome so could not remove it because the eu laws don’t allow it… That was in fact the situation re VAT. It is no longer the situation now. We should definitely be abolishing VAT on all essential goods before future generations think of dragging us back in. |
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 11:23:35 GMT
All industrialised developed nations have citizens who originate from other places, and other parts of the world, its just the nature of things, its how it is. Of course it is 'how it is' - the current situation was forced on these populations against their will |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 11:23:37 GMT
Labour immediately reduced it to the lowest level permissable under EU law. It could not be scrapped until we were no longer bound by such laws. Have the Tories scrapped it now? Ahh yes, the British government were not allowed to reduce VAT in the UK, because we were governed from Brussels. You must be very proud. Have the Tory government now scrapped it? Having been the ones who introduced it in the first place? |
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Post by Vinny on Feb 1, 2024 11:32:15 GMT
Clarke! Ha, that toerag should never have been a Tory, indeed he wasn't a Tory. He was a lefty in the Tory party. He once famously said... ..."I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe"He should have been prosecuted for such treachery. Whereas you should be awarded for such comedy. I knew he was a Tory when he whacked VAT on fuel bills. We didn't have VAT until we joined the EEC. The EU whacked VAT on fuel, Clarke followed suit. |
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Post by Vinny on Feb 1, 2024 11:35:57 GMT
strange that. we can happily stuff the tax on something but having dome so could not remove it because the eu laws don’t allow it… That was in fact the situation re VAT. It is no longer the situation now. We should definitely be abolishing VAT on all essential goods before future generations think of dragging us back in. Be glad of Brexit then, because without Brexit it would have been illegal to do so under EU law. And, yes, we should abolish VAT on essentials, it's wrong to tax the people at the bottom. |
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Post by witchfinder on Feb 1, 2024 11:41:09 GMT
All industrialised developed nations have citizens who originate from other places, and other parts of the world, its just the nature of things, its how it is. Of course it is 'how it is' - the current situation was forced on these populations against their will To give but just one example, in post war Germany there was much to do but not enough labour to do it, in particular the unskilled labour required to rebuild the country, and I refer here to West Germany. If it were not for the unskilled labour who went to Germany from Turkey and Southern Europe, the rebuilding of that country would have been seriously held up, the economy would have taken longer to get back on its feet by a decade, and West Germany would not have become the economic power it became in the 1960s. The very same could be said of this country in the post war period, migrants from the Caribbean filled the gaps in the newly born NHS, they delivered our babies, drove our buses, sorted our mail and kept the London tube going. To say that immigration has no benefits or positives is to defy what history clearly shows |
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Post by johnofgwent on Feb 1, 2024 11:42:49 GMT
Whereas you should be awarded for such comedy. I knew he was a Tory when he whacked VAT on fuel bills. We didn't have VAT until we joined the EEC. The EU whacked VAT on fuel, Clarke followed suit. Yet we still have VAT now..... strange, that
Of the entire shitfest of tories who put themselves up for Boris' job, only Dominic Raab pledged to throw VAT in the shitter, and look how far he got in the contest
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Post by johnofgwent on Feb 1, 2024 11:43:47 GMT
Of course it is 'how it is' - the current situation was forced on these populations against their will To give but just one example, in post war Germany there was much to do but not enough labour to do it, in particular the unskilled labour required to rebuild the country, and I refer here to West Germany. If it were not for the unskilled labour who went to Germany from Turkey and Southern Europe, the rebuilding of that country would have been seriously held up, the economy would have taken longer to get back on its feet by a decade, and West Germany would not have become the economic power it became in the 1960s. The very same could be said of this country in the post war period, migrants from the Caribbean filled the gaps in the newly born NHS, they delivered our babies, drove our buses, sorted our mail and kept the London tube going. To say that immigration has no benefits or positives is to defy what history clearly shows Yes, but i think you will find the west germans knew just how those gastarbeiters needed to be treated. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 1, 2024 11:44:20 GMT
But we've got the recipes now, so why do they need to stay? In most cases today it will be because they are British, having been born here and never having lived anywhere else. Fair enough I suppose, although more fool us for giving citizenship away so cheaply.
'Got a new way to curry a camel's testicles? Then welcome and here's your new passport.'
But then why are more and more still coming all the time? Are they all bringing exciting ethnic dishes, thrilling new dance syncopations and entrancing fabrics and fashions? If not why are we letting them in?
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 11:53:32 GMT
Of course it is 'how it is' - the current situation was forced on these populations against their will To give but just one example, in post war Germany there was much to do but not enough labour to do it, in particular the unskilled labour required to rebuild the country, and I refer here to West Germany. If it were not for the unskilled labour who went to Germany from Turkey and Southern Europe, the rebuilding of that country would have been seriously held up, the economy would have taken longer to get back on its feet by a decade, and West Germany would not have become the economic power it became in the 1960s. The very same could be said of this country in the post war period, migrants from the Caribbean filled the gaps in the newly born NHS, they delivered our babies, drove our buses, sorted our mail and kept the London tube going. You aren't really making an argument against my point. The situation was forced on these populations. Unskilled labour can hired on a temporary basis. In the case of UK in particular, what you are saying is false in any case - and - if you look at our current situation with a population around 70 million on a small island, you can hardly argue that there is an ongoing 'labour shortage' that warrant half a million new entrants a year. What you have presented is dishonest and doesn't tackle my point. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 1, 2024 11:55:47 GMT
Of course it is 'how it is' - the current situation was forced on these populations against their will To give but just one example, in post war Germany there was much to do but not enough labour to do it, in particular the unskilled labour required to rebuild the country, and I refer here to West Germany. If it were not for the unskilled labour who went to Germany from Turkey and Southern Europe, the rebuilding of that country would have been seriously held up, the economy would have taken longer to get back on its feet by a decade, and West Germany would not have become the economic power it became in the 1960s. The very same could be said of this country in the post war period, migrants from the Caribbean filled the gaps in the newly born NHS, they delivered our babies, drove our buses, sorted our mail and kept the London tube going. To say that immigration has no benefits or positives is to defy what history clearly shows Germany's a bit of a special case. They lost almost eight million men in the Second World War as well as over two million civilians.
The Gastarbeiter scheme was terminated as long ago as 1973 and yet there are now almost four million Turks and people of Turkish descent in the country even though Turks were not admitted until 1961.
As Helmut Schmidt remarked "We thought we were bringing in temporary labourers but we got families instead"
Similarly for the UK.
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 12:11:47 GMT
I also find the notion of an unskilled economic miracle worker a bit perplexing.
Why aren't the many places with huge surpluses of unskilled labour experiencing continuous economic miracles due to these people?
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