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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 13:31:10 GMT
The fact that you didn’t care about being in the clique doesn’t refute the fact that you were excluded from the clique . If a an ethnic Pole and an ethnic white English person produced a child then that child would one step away from the ethnicity of its parents . I have no problem at all with my Jamaican friend not being ethnic English . I doubt that he has a problem either . I do have a problem with him being denied being English . Because he embraces being English more than Jamaican. The point is I could easily come up with my own classification of English that excludes Dan and co. That wouldn't make them any less English. As far as I'm concerned they may as well be stamping their feet and insisting I'm a giraffe. But you described yourself as having Irish Heritage. Isn't that an excluding category with yourself inside it? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 13:38:12 GMT
The point is I could easily come up with my own classification of English that excludes Dan and co. That wouldn't make them any less English. As far as I'm concerned they may as well be stamping their feet and insisting I'm a giraffe. But you described yourself as having Irish Heritage. Isn't that an excluding category with yourself inside it? No it isn't exclusive because I'm not denying anyone their Irish heritage. |
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Post by Vanna on Dec 3, 2023 13:39:18 GMT
Hornet, I'm glad you mentioned the giraffe thing. Because this is happening in our mad age. A man decides he identifies as a woman, dresses in pink, wears loud pink lipstick, high heels, a rainbow parasol, a flower design handbag and a girly wig. He is now "a woman". I am biologically a female, a woman. If I say, "au contraire mon amie, you are not a woman, you are just dressed like one" I shall be vilified in the same way Hornet is trying to vilify some of us. Real men and woman are the nasties. Pretenders are the real thing. And it has come to children identifying as cats. They can wear fluffy ears and tails and eat cat food but they are not cats. Cats are cats. Say something and you will be vilified as a dreadful entity of hate.
Our world is mad. Fortunately I am not mad and I know I am English because my ancestors from over a thousand years ago came to England and made it the homeland of what came to be known as "the English". I can't escape my genes. Adopt the culture as much as you like. Wear pink as much as you like. Dress up as a giraffe as much as you like.
However, real people and animals and sexes exist and are the definition of this. That should never be denied them. To do so is partially crazy or a crafty method of breaking down definitions and confusing people.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 13:44:58 GMT
Hornet, I'm glad you mentioned the giraffe thing. Because this is happening in our mad age. A man decides he identifies as a woman, dresses in pink, wears loud pink lipstick, high heels, a rainbow parasol, a flower design handbag and a girly wig. He is now "a woman". I am biologically a female, a woman. If I say, "au contraire mon amie, you are not a woman, you are just dressed like one" I shall be vilified in the same way Hornet is trying to vilify some of us. Real men and woman are the nasties. Pretenders are the real thing. And it has come to children identifying as cats. They can wear fluffy ears and tails and eat cat food but they are not cats. Cats are cats. Say something and you will be vilified as a dreadful entity of hate. Our world is mad. Fortunately I am not mad and I know I am English because my ancestors from over a thousand years ago came to England and made it the homeland of what came to be known as "the English". I can't escape my genes. Adopt the culture as much as you like. Wear pink as much as you like. Dress up as a giraffe as much as you like. However, real people and animals and sexes exist and are the definition of this. That should never be denied them. To do so is partially crazy or a crafty method of breaking down definitions and confusing people. So there's no such thing as English culture? What if your great grandmother cheated on your great grandfather with a foreigner, then you wouldn't be English by your definition would you? |
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 13:46:43 GMT
But you described yourself as having Irish Heritage. Isn't that an excluding category with yourself inside it? No it isn't exclusive because I'm not denying anyone their Irish heritage. In which case your statement means nothing - it says nothing about who / what your are as opposed to anyone else. I'm sure you can see how pointless saying nothing at all is. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 13:51:13 GMT
No it isn't exclusive because I'm not denying anyone their Irish heritage. In which case your statement means nothing - it says nothing about who / what your are as opposed to anyone else. I'm sure you can see how pointless saying nothing at all is. I'm afraid you've lost me here. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 13:58:14 GMT
In which case your statement means nothing - it says nothing about who / what your are as opposed to anyone else. I'm sure you can see how pointless saying nothing at all is. I'm afraid you've lost me here. If anyone at all can correctly say they have Irish Heritage, what does 'having Irish heritage' mean? What information is transferred by the statement? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 13:59:24 GMT
I'm afraid you've lost me here. If anyone at all can correctly say they have Irish Heritage, what does 'having Irish heritage' mean? What information is transferred by the statement? It means I have an Irish parent and ancestry. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 14:04:34 GMT
If anyone at all can correctly say they have Irish Heritage, what does 'having Irish heritage' mean? What information is transferred by the statement? It means I have an Irish parent and ancestry. Sure. So you have no problem with such an excluding category that contains yourself. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 14:07:31 GMT
It means I have an Irish parent and ancestry. Sure. So you have no problem with such an excluding category that contains yourself. I'm not excluding anyone, I'm not denying anyone else their national identity. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 3, 2023 14:10:11 GMT
The problem with heritage and ancestry is a mathematical one. Going back through one's genealogy, our forbears increase exponentially. I have English parents (2) and English grandparents (4), but when I get to great-grandparents (8) I have English (4), Scots (2), Irish (1) and Welsh (1). If I push further back (I went as far as the 16th Century) you can pick and choose your path, unless you stick to a strictly patrilineal approach. I have Dutch ancestors, Viking ancestors, German ancestors and so on.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 14:11:21 GMT
So you don't know then? However one of the points made is that many people are trying to prise national/ethnic identity away from the English and obviously this is creating a fightback within which you are caught up. It is not fair on you but equally it is not fair on the English and in reality it is an English homeland. I reiterate I am Scots so I am viewing it from the outside The only people on this thread trying to prise away people's national identity are those trying to deny me and others like me ours. But then bullies often see or at least try to portray themselves as victims. You are entitled to your Irish heritage even though your parents moved, are English people entitled to their English heritage even though none of them moved at all? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 3, 2023 14:14:06 GMT
In nine pages of discussion we have yet to consider a definition of what constitutes an 'ethnic group' and whether the English qualify as one.
Perhaps we should do that soon. Any takers?
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 14:15:33 GMT
The only people on this thread trying to prise away people's national identity are those trying to deny me and others like me ours. But then bullies often see or at least try to portray themselves as victims. You are entitled to your Irish heritage even though your parents moved, are English people entitled to their English heritage even though none of them moved at all? Of course English people are entitled to their English heritage, I've never said otherwise. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 14:15:48 GMT
Sure. So you have no problem with such an excluding category that contains yourself. I'm not excluding anyone, I'm not denying anyone else their national identity. Your national identity (nationality) is British (UK) (I assume). Nobody has contended that |
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