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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 14:16:51 GMT
You are entitled to your Irish heritage even though your parents moved, are English people entitled to their English heritage even though none of them moved at all? Of course English people are entitled to their English heritage, I've never said otherwise. That English heritage excludes you, and me of course. Why would you find that upsetting?
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 14:53:32 GMT
Of course English people are entitled to their English heritage, I've never said otherwise. That English heritage excludes you, and me of course. Why would you find that upsetting? That doesn't upset me in the slightest. What bothers me is when people use it as an excuse to try to deny me my national identity.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 14:55:00 GMT
I'm not excluding anyone, I'm not denying anyone else their national identity. Your national identity (nationality) is British (UK) (I assume). Nobody has contended that Legally speaking yes, I'm a British citizen. I'm both British and English and proud to be both but I'm English first and foremost.
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 15:10:09 GMT
Your national identity (nationality) is British (UK) (I assume). Nobody has contended that Legally speaking yes, I'm a British citizen. I'm both British and English and proud to be both but I'm English first and foremost. You claim Irish heritage btw This seems to mean that the Irish label means something in reality and the English label is almost meaningless (just a word)
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 15:15:54 GMT
Legally speaking yes, I'm a British citizen. I'm both British and English and proud to be both but I'm English first and foremost. You claim Irish heritage btw This seems to mean that the Irish label means something in reality and the English label is almost meaningless (just a word) No, I'm of Irish descent but I'm English. How many Irish people do you think would instantly recognise me with my Watford accent as Irish?
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Post by Orac on Dec 3, 2023 15:24:21 GMT
You claim Irish heritage btw This seems to mean that the Irish label means something in reality and the English label is almost meaningless (just a word) No, I'm of Irish descent but I'm English. How many Irish people do you think would instantly recognise me with my Watford accent as Irish? I'm finding it hard to imagine why you feel you have any cause for complaint. You are a UK citizen with Irish Heritage. Why do you need the English label to be meaningless enough to include you? There are Irish citizens who don't have , or claim, Irish Heritage and they seem to be happy
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 15:31:53 GMT
That English heritage excludes you, and me of course. Why would you find that upsetting? That doesn't upset me in the slightest. What bothers me is when people use it as an excuse to try to deny me my national identity. Then why say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture? That seems to specifically deny the right to hold an English heritage identity as something different from a National identity?
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 15:32:08 GMT
No, I'm of Irish descent but I'm English. How many Irish people do you think would instantly recognise me with my Watford accent as Irish? I'm finding it hard to imagine why you feel you have any cause for complaint. You are a UK citizen with Irish Heritage. Why do you need the English label to be meaningless enough to include you? There are Irish citizens who don't have , or claim, Irish Heritage and they seem to be happy Me being English doesn't make English meaningless. The question for me is why you and others are working so hard to try to take my national identity away from me?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 15:35:37 GMT
I'm finding it hard to imagine why you feel you have any cause for complaint. You are a UK citizen with Irish Heritage. Why do you need the English label to be meaningless enough to include you? There are Irish citizens who don't have , or claim, Irish Heritage and they seem to be happy Me being English doesn't make English meaningless. The question for me is why you and others are working so hard to try to take my national identity away from me? No one is your National identity is British as has been pointed out several times.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 15:36:23 GMT
That doesn't upset me in the slightest. What bothers me is when people use it as an excuse to try to deny me my national identity. Then why say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture? That seems to specifically deny the right to hold an English heritage identity as something different from a National identity? I never said that there is no such thing as English ethnicity, I'm saying ethnicity isn't the sole determinant of nationality. Using the hypothetical example from earlier, a kid with two ethnic English parents born and raised in France, never set foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English. According to some here that kid would be English. But in the real world, how many people upon meeting him would immediately recognise him as English? My guess is precisely zero. And to suggest that kid would be more English than me is just plain fucking stupid.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 15:36:48 GMT
Me being English doesn't make English meaningless. The question for me is why you and others are working so hard to try to take my national identity away from me? No one is your National identity is British as has been pointed out several times. I'm English first, British second.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 15:51:44 GMT
Then why say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture? That seems to specifically deny the right to hold an English heritage identity as something different from a National identity? I never said that there is no such thing as English ethnicity, I'm saying ethnicity isn't the sole determinant of nationality. Using the hypothetical example from earlier, a kid with two ethnic English parents born and raised in France, never set foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English. According to some here that kid would be English. But in the real world, how many people upon meeting him would immediately recognise him as English? My guess is precisely zero. And to suggest that kid would be more English than me is just plain fucking stupid. You did say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture way back on page 1. All I am trying to determine is why you find the thought that English as an ethnic group and as a heritage is something that you find unsettling. You refer to Irish heritage as something different but find English heritage a potential problem for you and wish to deny English people the same right you claim. One cannot be of Irish heritage and claim to be English in every respect as that denies English heritage people from having an identity that is like yours, specific. That does not exclude you from joining in but if identity is claimed all over the place, it is unfair to teh English to say, no you are purely a National identity that anyone can be.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 15:55:51 GMT
I never said that there is no such thing as English ethnicity, I'm saying ethnicity isn't the sole determinant of nationality. Using the hypothetical example from earlier, a kid with two ethnic English parents born and raised in France, never set foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English. According to some here that kid would be English. But in the real world, how many people upon meeting him would immediately recognise him as English? My guess is precisely zero. And to suggest that kid would be more English than me is just plain fucking stupid. You did say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture way back on page 1. All I am trying to determine is why you find the thought that English as an ethnic group and as a heritage is something that you find unsettling. You refer to Irish heritage as something different but find English heritage a potential problem for you and wish to deny English people the same right you claim. One cannot be of Irish heritage and claim to be English in every respect as that denies English heritage people from having an identity that is like yours, specific. That does not exclude you from joining in but if identity is claimed all over the place, it is unfair to teh English to say, no you are purely a National identity that anyone can be. What I meant by that comment is that English is more than an ethnicity. I have zero problem with English heritage. My father being Irish doesn't automatically make me Irish anymore than him being a carpet fitter makes me one. How many people in Ireland do you think would recognise me with my Watford accent as a compatriot?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2023 16:25:32 GMT
You did say English is not an ethnicity it is a culture way back on page 1. All I am trying to determine is why you find the thought that English as an ethnic group and as a heritage is something that you find unsettling. You refer to Irish heritage as something different but find English heritage a potential problem for you and wish to deny English people the same right you claim. One cannot be of Irish heritage and claim to be English in every respect as that denies English heritage people from having an identity that is like yours, specific. That does not exclude you from joining in but if identity is claimed all over the place, it is unfair to teh English to say, no you are purely a National identity that anyone can be. What I meant by that comment is that English is more than an ethnicity. I have zero problem with English heritage. My father being Irish doesn't automatically make me Irish anymore than him being a carpet fitter makes me one. How many people in Ireland do you think would recognise me with my Watford accent as a compatriot? None of that is the point. I am not saying you are Irish but you state quite clearly you have Irish heritage. Which is inclusive and exclusive at the same time. A man in Ireland with English ancestry is not ethnically Irish even if he speaks with an Irish accent and dances like Michael Flatley most especially if he says he is of English heritage. Ask any Irishman of Irish heritage in Ireland.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 3, 2023 16:41:54 GMT
What I meant by that comment is that English is more than an ethnicity. I have zero problem with English heritage. My father being Irish doesn't automatically make me Irish anymore than him being a carpet fitter makes me one. How many people in Ireland do you think would recognise me with my Watford accent as a compatriot? None of that is the point. I am not saying you are Irish but you state quite clearly you have Irish heritage. Which is inclusive and exclusive at the same time. A man in Ireland with English ancestry is not ethnically Irish even if he speaks with an Irish accent and dances like Michael Flatley most especially if he says he is of English heritage. Ask any Irishman of Irish heritage in Ireland. I've never claimed to be ethnically English, not entirely at any rate. But I am English. At some point you have to let common sense into the conversation. To go back to my hypothetical kid of ethnic English parentage born and raised in France, how would his English ethnic heritage be visible? Me on the other hand, put me in a room with 50 people of 100% ethnically English people and you wouldn't be able to pick me out, I'd bet my life on it.
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