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Post by buccaneer on Dec 2, 2023 12:53:43 GMT
You speak about a 'good thing for social cohesion'; yet undermine that with your belief in the racist terminology of 'white privilege'. I think you want "social cohesion" on your terms, which if I may say do not look very cohesive at all. What is the upside of telling each and every white person in the UK they are privileged? You haven't answered my question. As I said, it seems your tokenistic claim for social cohesion is just that. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 2, 2023 12:53:54 GMT
A question for those who seek to deny someone their English identity because of their lack of ethnic purity. What are the benefits of it? For me someone of immigrant extraction who considers themselves English and proud is a good thing, good for social cohesion. Telling them they aren't English because they don't qualify for your Volksgemeinschaft however, just seems to needlessly create division and hostility where there was none previously and harms social cohesion. So what's the upside? If I do a convincing Lenny Henry impression am i therefore of Jamaican Heritage? Nope. Does that mean i am the victim of some kind of Jamaican heritage Nazi policy? Nope. What is so astonishing is that you can walk right up to the contradiction and point to it - show people that they are claiming distinction for themselves and denying those they exclude from being anything else - and they are so mind-washed that 'it's all about them and their identity' that still can't see the total logical contradiction. If A and B are different, A is one thing and therefore B is another thing. It would be very odd indeed if we had name for A-type things, but B-type things remained unnamed for political reasons |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 12:59:39 GMT
A question for those who seek to deny someone their English identity because of their lack of ethnic purity. What are the benefits of it? For me someone of immigrant extraction who considers themselves English and proud is a good thing, good for social cohesion. Telling them they aren't English because they don't qualify for your Volksgemeinschaft however, just seems to needlessly create division and hostility where there was none previously and harms social cohesion. So what's the upside? If I do a convincing Lenny Henry impression am i therefore of Jamaican Heritage? Nope. Does that mean i am the victim of some kind of Jamaican heritage Nazi policy? Nope. What is so astonishing is that you can walk right up to the contradiction and point to it - show people that they are claiming distinction for themselves and denying those they exclude from being anything else - and they are so mind-washed that 'it's all about them and their identity' that still can't see the total logical contradiction. If A and B are different, A is one thing and therefore B is another thingI'm of Irish extraction but am born and raised in England, if you put me in a room with 100 ethnic English people you wouldn't be pick me out, I'd bet my life on it. If I walked into a busy pub in Ireland and tried to pass myself off as Irish I'd be laughed out of the place. I'm English, deal with it. I don't deny anyone their ethnic identity, never have done. I'm challenging people using it as a tool for division, exclusion and bullying. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 13:00:11 GMT
You haven't answered my question. As I said, it seems your tokenistic claim for social cohesion is just that. So you can't answer the question, didn't think you could. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 2, 2023 13:00:42 GMT
I think it is pretty easy to identify the English, go into any bar in the world and a lot of people will speak English, but by their accent you can easily say they are a Jamaican speaking or a black fella from Rochdale say.
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Post by Orac on Dec 2, 2023 13:02:33 GMT
If I do a convincing Lenny Henry impression am i therefore of Jamaican Heritage? Nope. Does that mean i am the victim of some kind of Jamaican heritage Nazi policy? Nope. What is so astonishing is that you can walk right up to the contradiction and point to it - show people that they are claiming distinction for themselves and denying those they exclude from being anything else - and they are so mind-washed that 'it's all about them and their identity' that still can't see the total logical contradiction. If A and B are different, A is one thing and therefore B is another thingI'm of Irish extraction That's a category with an outside - that is, only some people are of 'Irish extraction'. That sounds like you are excluding people to me. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 13:03:43 GMT
That's a category with an outside - that is, only some people are of 'Irish extraction'. That sounds like you are excluding people to me. How the hell am I excluding people? |
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Post by buccaneer on Dec 2, 2023 13:05:10 GMT
As I said, it seems your tokenistic claim for social cohesion is just that. So you can't answer the question, didn't think you could. I'm just demonstrating how hollow your words are in the face of hypocrisy. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 2, 2023 13:11:22 GMT
That's a category with an outside - that is, only some people are of 'Irish extraction'. That sounds like you are excluding people to me. How the hell am I excluding people? You have a category with a non consenting outside. If i'm not of Irish heritage, I'm outside your category. Most meaningful categories are like this - there is no way a cat can (say) elect to become a painting of st Paul's cathedral. The counter question is, how am i excluding you and from what? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 13:15:28 GMT
How the hell am I excluding people? You have a category with a non consenting outside. If i'm not of Irish heritage, I'm outside your category. Most meaningful categories are like this - there is no way a cat can (say) elect to become a painting of st Paul's cathedral. The counter question is, how am i excluding you and from what? If you deny my or anyone else's English identity because of an account of birth you are excluding them. I'm not denying anyone their Irish heritage. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 2, 2023 13:17:10 GMT
A question for those who seek to deny someone their English identity because of their lack of ethnic purity. What are the benefits of it? For me someone of immigrant extraction who considers themselves English and proud is a good thing, good for social cohesion. Telling them they aren't English because they don't qualify for your Volksgemeinschaft however, just seems to needlessly create division and hostility where there was none previously and harms social cohesion. So what's the upside? For you, probably none. For the English people, their heritage and ancestry receive proper recognition after decades of deprecation in the cause of 'inclusivity'. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 13:32:23 GMT
A question for those who seek to deny someone their English identity because of their lack of ethnic purity. What are the benefits of it? For me someone of immigrant extraction who considers themselves English and proud is a good thing, good for social cohesion. Telling them they aren't English because they don't qualify for your Volksgemeinschaft however, just seems to needlessly create division and hostility where there was none previously and harms social cohesion. So what's the upside? For you, probably none. For the English people, their heritage and ancestry receive proper recognition after decades of deprecation in the cause of 'inclusivity'. I am English. How is that denying anyone their heritage or ancestry? |
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Post by bancroft on Dec 2, 2023 13:44:37 GMT
The identity issue is a tricky one. As happyhornet said he feels English and most people accept him as English, I sometimes think English is the same as Anglo-Saxon for ethnicity yet that would exclude those of Norman or French birth that have been here for centuries. I have also heard those that have family going back 2 generations normally have closer genes to one another that any particular group in Europe. I guess for me it would be anyone living in England that had family involved in both WWI and WW2, even in saying that, it excludes an Irish friend born here who has an issue over whether his son is English or Irish. Now if we could establish an English identity it is fair to ask what would apply to well settled people from outsides these Islands. I would never consider them to have English ethnicity yet can understand if they seek to be seen as English, as ancestry aside they fit in or as you might say are Anglicised. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 2, 2023 13:56:13 GMT
You have a category with a non consenting outside. If i'm not of Irish heritage, I'm outside your category. Most meaningful categories are like this - there is no way a cat can (say) elect to become a painting of st Paul's cathedral. The counter question is, how am i excluding you and from what? If you deny my or anyone else's English identity because of an account of birth you are excluding them. I'm not denying anyone their Irish heritage. I didn't deny you anything. You told me you had Irish heritage |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 2, 2023 14:05:19 GMT
The identity issue is a tricky one. As happyhornet said he feels English and most people accept him as English, I sometimes think English is the same as Anglo-Saxon for ethnicity yet that would exclude those of Norman or French birth that have been here for centuries. I have also heard those that have family going back 2 generations normally have closer genes to one another that any particular group in Europe. I guess for me it would be anyone living in England that had family involved in both WWI and WW2, even in saying that, it excludes an Irish friend born here who has an issue over whether his son is English or Irish. Now if we could establish an English identity it is fair to ask what would apply to well settled people from outsides these Islands. I would never consider them to have English ethnicity yet can understand if they seek to be seen as English, as ancestry aside they fit in or as you might say are Anglicised. Not those frigging Normans. |
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