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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 11:08:56 GMT
One of the reasons Carty has never felt English is because that has been trained out of him at an early age, as it was for most people who have been processed through the so-called educational system and subsequently derived their world-view from what they are instructed to think by the legacy media. Englishness has been officially deprecated since the creation of the Union, largely because of the need to enrol the non-English in the Imperial project. Going around trying to deny people their Englishness probably isn't helping either. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 2, 2023 11:09:27 GMT
If English is not an ethnicity, how about Scottish, Irish or Welsh? Norwegian, German, Yoruba, Han or Japanese for that matter. Is there no such thing as an ethnicity, or is it just the English who don't qualify? Those are also nationalities. Of course you can be ethnically or indigenously English too. I purposely included two ethnies which are not nationalities, but anyway, you appear to be conceding now that there is such a thing as the ethnically English. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 11:10:31 GMT
"I have nothing against anyone for who they are. I just wish some would feel the same way about me" I feel the same but it's people on the other side of the political spectrum who have been trying to deny me and my kids national identity. It does get tiring. I do not believe anyone is denying you a national identity in fact it is the other way round you seem to be denying the English a national identity because you feel it may exclude you however that perception came about. Most people are not excluding you but anyone who also claims an ethnic minority status has to actually have a clear idea of what the Ethnic majority is and in England that majority is English just as it would be Indian in India, or Irish in Ireland. Why does that annoy people so much. For clarification I am Scottish but I would never dream of denying the English the same right I claim. Go to a busy pub in England during an England game in next summer's Euros and shout out at the top of your voice that Jude Bellingham isn't England and shouldn't be playing for England. I dare you. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 2, 2023 11:12:44 GMT
Those are also nationalities. Of course you can be ethnically or indigenously English too. I purposely included two ethnies which are not nationalities, but anyway, you appear to be conceding now that there is such a thing as the ethnically English. Of course there is but it's not the sole definition of Englishness. Are you saying a kid with two English parents born and raised in France who's never step foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English is English? Because that's crackers. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 2, 2023 11:14:44 GMT
I do not believe anyone is denying you a national identity in fact it is the other way round you seem to be denying the English a national identity because you feel it may exclude you however that perception came about. Most people are not excluding you but anyone who also claims an ethnic minority status has to actually have a clear idea of what the Ethnic majority is and in England that majority is English just as it would be Indian in India, or Irish in Ireland. Why does that annoy people so much. For clarification I am Scottish but I would never dream of denying the English the same right I claim. Go to a busy pub in England during an England game in next summer's Euros and shout out at the top of your voice that Jude Bellingham isn't England and shouldn't be playing for England. I dare you. That wouldn’t refute the premise . |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 2, 2023 11:16:43 GMT
Perhaps those who claim to be English, should, if they haven't already, have their DNA checked. I claim to be English (4th generation) but most of my DNA is Scottish followed by Scandinavian and a touch of Irish. Edit: Cartertonian has just reminded me about what I feel, and I have felt for a long time to be European. Broadly DNA is immaterial as ethnicity is a process of mutual acceptance on the part of those who are of that group. I can go and live in Kurdistan and adapt fully to the culture and never be Kurd although my children might if I married and had children there and, and this is important, they accepted they were Kurdish and were accepted by the Kurds. It is like Native Americans as that heritage with the advent of the Reservation gaming allowance has had to be defined by the people themselves as it now brings advantages and wealth. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 2, 2023 11:18:57 GMT
I purposely included two ethnies which are not nationalities, but anyway, you appear to be conceding now that there is such a thing as the ethnically English. Of course there is but it's not the sole definition of Englishness. Are you saying a kid with two English parents born and raised in France who's never step foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English is English? Because that's crackers. Your ethnic identity is something you inherit not something you can become.
You can't cast off your old one like an unwanted old pullover when you become tired of it, and take on a shiny new one just because you like it better.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 2, 2023 11:19:21 GMT
I do not believe anyone is denying you a national identity in fact it is the other way round you seem to be denying the English a national identity because you feel it may exclude you however that perception came about. Most people are not excluding you but anyone who also claims an ethnic minority status has to actually have a clear idea of what the Ethnic majority is and in England that majority is English just as it would be Indian in India, or Irish in Ireland. Why does that annoy people so much. For clarification I am Scottish but I would never dream of denying the English the same right I claim. Go to a busy pub in England during an England game in next summer's Euros and shout out at the top of your voice that Jude Bellingham isn't England and shouldn't be playing for England. I dare you. You still have not got it England is a National football team not an ethnic football team and the qualifications are fairly lax and well defined but ethnicity is not except as largely a perception on the part of individuals and the group. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 2, 2023 11:19:44 GMT
There are hundreds of thousands of Americans that have no real connection with Ireland and are several generations away from people who were born in Ireland yet consider themselves ethnic Irish .
So maybe I see the point of the OP.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 11:21:28 GMT
English isn't an ethnicity, it's a culture, if you're born and raised in England and speak with an English accent you're English. Then how can anyone then also be an ethnic minority? What you are in part saying is that those that follow cultures from abroad are not English It would be like me going up to Scotland and telling them they're not an ethnic group, even though the Scots up there are an ethnic group. It wouldn't be welcomed and would be met with anger. Even on here we have somebody claiming to be Scottish suggesting that we all have our DNA checked, which is the sort of thing Hitler would have proposed.
The hatred toward the English is intentional and has been in full flow since the last Labour government took power. The hostility is to be expected from those who know of nothing else except the engineered institution, who follow the engineered trends laid out by the anti-English Brits.
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Post by Vanna on Dec 2, 2023 11:23:06 GMT
This is what happens to someone who might say he is Jamaican. But is also a British national, lives the basic "British" lifestyle, etc. However when it comes to identity on a particular level he will say he is Jamaican because that is where his ancestral family comes from. This doesn't always go down very well with the wokerati. He is supposed to give up all that stuff about identity and take on whatever it is they want from him. Become a world citizen or some such thing. Not have identity.
It is utterly fascist not to allow people to identify with their ancestral heritage. And it's cruel.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 2, 2023 11:23:19 GMT
I purposely included two ethnies which are not nationalities, but anyway, you appear to be conceding now that there is such a thing as the ethnically English. Of course there is but it's not the sole definition of Englishness. Are you saying a kid with two English parents born and raised in France who's never step foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English is English? Because that's crackers. If he believed he was ethnically French and was accepted as being ethnically French by the French themselves then he would be ethnically French. There are people who may be ethnically English but may not have any English blood in them at all but they accept and are accepted as ethnically English, I am not sure if Dan would agree with that but that is certainly my take. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 2, 2023 11:26:41 GMT
Then how can anyone then also be an ethnic minority? What you are in part saying is that those that follow cultures from abroad are not English It would be like me going up to Scotland and telling them they're not an ethnic group, even though the Scots up there are an ethnic group. It wouldn't be welcomed and would be met with anger. Even on here we have somebody claiming to be Scottish suggesting that we all have our DNA checked, which is the sort of thing Hitler would have proposed.
The hatred toward the English is intentional and has been in full flow since the last Labour government took power. The hostility is to be expected from those who know of nothing else except the engineered institution, who follow the engineered trends laid out by the anti-English Brits.
That anti English hatred is more to the fore now but it was recognised by Orwell some time back as an affectation of the good and the great. It has almost reached fever pitch now. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 11:33:15 GMT
It would be like me going up to Scotland and telling them they're not an ethnic group, even though the Scots up there are an ethnic group. It wouldn't be welcomed and would be met with anger. Even on here we have somebody claiming to be Scottish suggesting that we all have our DNA checked, which is the sort of thing Hitler would have proposed.
The hatred toward the English is intentional and has been in full flow since the last Labour government took power. The hostility is to be expected from those who know of nothing else except the engineered institution, who follow the engineered trends laid out by the anti-English Brits.
That anti English hatred is more to the fore now but it was recognised by Orwell some time back as an affectation of the good and the great. It has almost reached fever pitch now. I agree, it has been in the Brit institution for a long time, but the process was heavily accelerated under Labour and devolution, where England was intentionally omitted by the Brits. I believe this was when it became serious and more genocidal, starting with a blatent and highly destructive drive toward cultural genocide. They called it multiculturalism, which many MPs, even former Brit PMs, have called a failure yet still pursued(sinister).
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 2, 2023 11:40:27 GMT
This is what happens to someone who might say he is Jamaican. But is also a British national, lives the basic "British" lifestyle, etc. However when it comes to identity on a particular level he will say he is Jamaican because that is where his ancestral family comes from. This doesn't always go down very well with the wokerati. He is supposed to give up all that stuff about identity and take on whatever it is they want from him. Become a world citizen or some such thing. Not have identity. It is utterly fascist not to allow people to identify with their ancestral heritage. And it's cruel. As you note Vanna, the urge to deny people their heritage is very selective. Nobody would dream of doing that to the Zulus, for example. Even fewer non-Zulus demand to share the Zulu heritage or would even dare trying.
Yet in England both are now common-place phenomena.
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