|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 17:24:22 GMT
But you are saying, Sandy that the english have to accept that someone who wants to be english can be english. So what is that process. How will I know if I have been accepted. Simply that person believing he is english is apparently not enough. And you say you foresee a time in the future when englishness does get used to convey some sort of right so clearly certainty of having been accepted as english is critical to being able to sleep soundly at night. Not sure you have thought this through. It is not a wish, nor is it want. It is an acceptance that one is and that is accepted by most others who are. It is an assimilation. You may be ethnic English, I know not, but you quiz its existence therefore realistically you are probably not or sense political capital in not being. In the Soviet Union ethnicities were deprecated unless it suited a political objective. |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 17:34:30 GMT
But I say again. I think I am English but now need to be approved as English by those who are English. But you dont seem willing to tell me how I get approved or how I know whether I have been. This whole approval thing doesnt seem to work. I think we are going to have to settle for if you think you are English, you're English
|
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 17:53:13 GMT
I'm not talking about him being French, I'm asking if he would be English? Your own criteria suggests he wouldn't be. No it does not read what I said. Ethnicity is a fluid thing but it needs mutual acceptance. This is what you said: "A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 19:15:33 GMT
But I say again. I think I am English but now need to be approved as English by those who are English. But you dont seem willing to tell me how I get approved or how I know whether I have been. This whole approval thing doesnt seem to work. I think we are going to have to settle for if you think you are English, you're English. Not approved, accepted, either tacitly or in actuality it does not matter. Take Lammy he said he was English but was challenged on being English by English people. That may be because he was meaning a different thing to what others thought, and that is the problem that English is in reality in the first instance an ethnicity and a Nationality second as it has become a mixed bag nationally full of ethnic minorities, so English is the ethnic majority who are not anything else other than English. Lammy cannot be part of the ethic majority and an ethnic minority all at the same time and there is little doubt he views himself as an ethnic minority and is viewed by many others as an ethnic minority. You do not seem to be willing to acknowledge English as an ethnic group, do you so acknowledge or do you say they do not exist? |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 19:23:26 GMT
No it does not read what I said. Ethnicity is a fluid thing but it needs mutual acceptance. This is what you said: "A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. He would not be English if he was fully assimilated into the French ethnicity, he would be ethnically French. If he was not fully assimilated into the ethnic French he would be English most especially if he said I am of English heritage. It is the difference as regards integration and assimilation. In integration you can tell the difference in some way in assimilation one cannot tell the difference either as the individual or as the group. You and dappy keep inventing situations but refuse to accept the answers. Integration is the process that dismantles barriers to assimilation. Integration is being within, without being a square peg in a round hole, assimilation is where no one can tell the difference. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Dec 7, 2023 20:57:31 GMT
But I say again. I think I am English but now need to be approved as English by those who are English. But you dont seem willing to tell me how I get approved or how I know whether I have been. This whole approval thing doesnt seem to work. I think we are going to have to settle for if you think you are English, you're English That is little different from believing that the schoolchildren who think they are cats actually are. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Dec 7, 2023 21:19:47 GMT
Stop telling the English that they don't exist and they probably wont make a big deal of it.
If you start start creating abstractions designed to erase them, they might get impolite on the issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 7:27:34 GMT
Stop telling the English that they don't exist and they probably wont make a big deal of it. If you start start creating abstractions designed to erase them, they might get impolite on the issue. The only English person who's existence has been denied on this thread is me. |
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 7:29:06 GMT
This is what you said: "A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. He would not be English if he was fully assimilated into the French ethnicity, he would be ethnically French. If he was not fully assimilated into the ethnic French he would be English most especially if he said I am of English heritage. It is the difference as regards integration and assimilation. In integration you can tell the difference in some way in assimilation one cannot tell the difference either as the individual or as the group. You and dappy keep inventing situations but refuse to accept the answers. Integration is the process that dismantles barriers to assimilation. Integration is being within, without being a square peg in a round hole, assimilation is where no one can tell the difference. You preach integration yet have spent 20 odd pages telling a fully integrated Englishman he isn't English. |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2023 9:21:47 GMT
But I say again. I think I am English but now need to be approved as English by those who are English. But you dont seem willing to tell me how I get approved or how I know whether I have been. This whole approval thing doesnt seem to work. I think we are going to have to settle for if you think you are English, you're English. Not approved, accepted, either tacitly or in actuality it does not matter. Take Lammy he said he was English but was challenged on being English by English people. That may be because he was meaning a different thing to what others thought, and that is the problem that English is in reality in the first instance an ethnicity and a Nationality second as it has become a mixed bag nationally full of ethnic minorities, so English is the ethnic majority who are not anything else other than English. Lammy cannot be part of the ethic majority and an ethnic minority all at the same time and there is little doubt he views himself as an ethnic minority and is viewed by many others as an ethnic minority. You do not seem to be willing to acknowledge English as an ethnic group, do you so acknowledge or do you say they do not exist? You make my point very well Sandy. David Lammy thinks he is English and I would agree with him. Yet you claim he was voted down. When was this vote? Who got to vote? I certainly wasn’t asked to vote. Does that mean that my claim for Englishness has been voted down to but no one has bothered to tell me. This whole approval (or acceptance) thing seems fatally dysfunctional. It also appears you are now saying that anyone with brown or black skin can’t be English. It rather feels as if the mask may be slipping. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2023 9:57:11 GMT
It looks like the foreigners who denied the existence of the ethnic English are desperate to be accepted as English. Such dishonesty on their part. It's no wonder so many good people are opposed to further immigration.
|
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Dec 8, 2023 10:00:23 GMT
Stop telling the English that they don't exist and they probably wont make a big deal of it. If you start start creating abstractions designed to erase them, they might get impolite on the issue. The only English person who's existence has been denied on this thread is me. Somehow I don't think this thread is about you. Is victimhood still en vogue? |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 10:53:29 GMT
He would not be English if he was fully assimilated into the French ethnicity, he would be ethnically French. If he was not fully assimilated into the ethnic French he would be English most especially if he said I am of English heritage. It is the difference as regards integration and assimilation. In integration you can tell the difference in some way in assimilation one cannot tell the difference either as the individual or as the group. You and dappy keep inventing situations but refuse to accept the answers. Integration is the process that dismantles barriers to assimilation. Integration is being within, without being a square peg in a round hole, assimilation is where no one can tell the difference. You preach integration yet have spent 20 odd pages telling a fully integrated Englishman he isn't English. How can you be 'fully integrated' when you state quite clearly you have Irish heritage. Having Irish heritage either means something which why you said it or means nothing in which case why say it. Integration is a step to assimilation. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 10:57:47 GMT
Not approved, accepted, either tacitly or in actuality it does not matter. Take Lammy he said he was English but was challenged on being English by English people. That may be because he was meaning a different thing to what others thought, and that is the problem that English is in reality in the first instance an ethnicity and a Nationality second as it has become a mixed bag nationally full of ethnic minorities, so English is the ethnic majority who are not anything else other than English. Lammy cannot be part of the ethic majority and an ethnic minority all at the same time and there is little doubt he views himself as an ethnic minority and is viewed by many others as an ethnic minority. You do not seem to be willing to acknowledge English as an ethnic group, do you so acknowledge or do you say they do not exist? You make my point very well Sandy. David Lammy thinks he is English and I would agree with him. Yet you claim he was voted down. When was this vote? Who got to vote? I certainly wasn’t asked to vote. Does that mean that my claim for Englishness has been voted down to but no one has bothered to tell me. This whole approval (or acceptance) thing seems fatally dysfunctional. It also appears you are now saying that anyone with brown or black skin can’t be English. It rather feels as if the mask may be slipping. Well try answering a question can anyone with white skin be an Australian aborigine? If yes I will concede the point that skin colour is immaterial if no then it has a bearing whether anyone likes it or not. Also remember you are answering yes or nor for Australian Aborigines and what they think and believe not for your own personal racial beliefs. EDIT As regards the 'vote' there is no vote there is only acceptance and if we take English as being ethnic English for the purposes of this thread there is little doubt he is not ethnically English as his antecedents are directly from Guyana. Wanting to blur the lines between ethnicity and Nationality is a rather tawdry exercise designed seemingly to eradicate an ethnic group. We have a name for that sort of thing. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 11:01:28 GMT
Stop telling the English that they don't exist and they probably wont make a big deal of it. If you start start creating abstractions designed to erase them, they might get impolite on the issue. The only English person who's existence has been denied on this thread is me. No one has queried your self identified grouping as being English with Irish heritage, in fact it is accepted without demur. |
|
