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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 13:11:30 GMT
You know seem to be arguing that anyone who considers themselves English should be allowed to be called English. In which case go for it.
Your last paragraph seemed to go back to claiming some special rights in some circumstances for those who are "ethnically english".
Honestly Sandy you are all over the place.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 13:17:13 GMT
Check the definition, the point is the ethnicity of being English depends on two party acceptance. All I have said from day one is that teh ethnic English exist, and if they wish that term to be English then as a self defining group that should be as is allowed to any other ethnic group all over the world. If there is no potential for problems then having an identity is of little importance, there is always that potential for identity, as it is held as extremely important by the left in general unless it is English and then it is pooh-poohed as either of no consequence or non existent. This seems to be leftish hypocrisy at work. As evidenced here that the English do not exist other than accents and people born here which is a nonsense. It is a nonsense because in the context of the discussion and in the right of an ethnicity to self identify he isn't. Unless you are saying ethnic groups cannot self identify and must adhere to what you say which is rather dictatorial and a denial of any other group that self identifies. Kurds cannot call themselves Kurds as an ethic group because that includes everyone who lives in Kurdistan regions so they must call themselves something else. It does not work like that. He didn't make a claim on ethnicity, he made a claim on nationality, a completely different thing. If I can be English why can't Lammy? |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 13:18:22 GMT
I have not said that at all, what I have clearly and concisely said is that ethnic English people exist. I have not said they should have special rights or are better, or significantly different but they do exist. Just as Australian aborigines exist or Native Americans exist and no one would say they did not exist and people are demanding and giving those groups special rights all the time. I have not made any such demands and have been quite clear in how I believe an ethnic group should be defined which is largly in in line with the Mandla judgement. A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English. It is a definition that is all, however it is important as they are being denigrated as not existing and in some quarters if they do exist not worth saving. We would never accept that outlook for any other group. By your definition the hypothetical kid I mentioned earlier who has two ethnic English parents but was born and raised in France, never set foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English, would not be English. Agreed? He is ethnic English, unless, and this seems to cause confusion, he is accepted as being ethnic French by most other ethnic Frenchmen and believes he is ethnically French to the exclusion of all other considerations. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 13:22:30 GMT
By your definition the hypothetical kid I mentioned earlier who has two ethnic English parents but was born and raised in France, never set foot in England and doesn't speak a word of English, would not be English. Agreed? He is ethnic English, unless, and this seems to cause confusion, he is accepted as being ethnic French by most other ethnic Frenchmen and believes he is ethnically French to the exclusion of all other considerations. "A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 14:35:40 GMT
He is ethnic English, unless, and this seems to cause confusion, he is accepted as being ethnic French by most other ethnic Frenchmen and believes he is ethnically French to the exclusion of all other considerations. "A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. It is called assimilation, which is the absorption into the whole free of any encumbrances. It does not matter what teh ethnic English think at this point it only matters what he believes and what the ethnic French believe. Ethnicity is a process of being not specifically a process of having been. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 14:44:37 GMT
You know seem to be arguing that anyone who considers themselves English should be allowed to be called English. In which case go for it. Your last paragraph seemed to go back to claiming some special rights in some circumstances for those who are "ethnically english". Honestly Sandy you are all over the place. No I did not and no I did not. I repeat ethnicity requires a belief by an individual and a belief by the group to teh exclusion of all other considerations. Someone who says he is English but is not accepted as Englihs by that group is not English, For clarification English in this context means ethnically English as I have explained several times. I am not claiming special rights for the English I am saying that if identity is an approved consideration for some, as it undoubtedly is, then that should apply to all self defined groups in the ethnicity context. Some day that may lead to special rights in line with rights claimed by Native Americans I know not and do not advocate such. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 14:47:43 GMT
It is a nonsense because in the context of the discussion and in the right of an ethnicity to self identify he isn't. Unless you are saying ethnic groups cannot self identify and must adhere to what you say which is rather dictatorial and a denial of any other group that self identifies. Kurds cannot call themselves Kurds as an ethic group because that includes everyone who lives in Kurdistan regions so they must call themselves something else. It does not work like that. He didn't make a claim on ethnicity, he made a claim on nationality, a completely different thing. If I can be English why can't Lammy? He made a claim on a word that people see in different ways. As an incomer he should respect how the ethnic English wish to so define. Too often respect is a one way street the English are expected to present to others but suck up any insult or denigration an incomer sees fit to present. |
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 14:48:24 GMT
Who should be the first member of the ethnically english clan and how will he/she and future members vote on new applicants?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 14:51:41 GMT
Who should be the first member of the ethnically english clan and how will he/she and future members vote on new applicants? Now we are moving into denigration mode and implying that English as an ethnic group did not and does not exist and that it is something new, when it clearly is not. Can you not do better with reasoned debate? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 15:44:57 GMT
He didn't make a claim on ethnicity, he made a claim on nationality, a completely different thing. If I can be English why can't Lammy? He made a claim on a word that people see in different ways. As an incomer he should respect how the ethnic English wish to so define. Too often respect is a one way street the English are expected to present to others but suck up any insult or denigration an incomer sees fit to present. No, he said he was English not ethnically English, you are trying to conflate the two to deprive a man of his national identity. He's not an incomer he was born in England. When did the ethnic English say that Lammy couldn't be English? Are you their spokesman? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 15:45:58 GMT
"A person in my view can be ethnically English and have no trace of any English DNA at all, all that is required is that he believes he is English in total, does not claim to be anything else and is not believed to be anything else by the bulk of the ethnic English." He wouldn't believe he was English, he would claim to be something else and would be believes to be something else by the bulk of the ethnic English. It is called assimilation, which is the absorption into the whole free of any encumbrances. It does not matter what teh ethnic English think at this point it only matters what he believes and what the ethnic French believe. Ethnicity is a process of being not specifically a process of having been. I'm not talking about him being French, I'm asking if he would be English? Your own criteria suggests he wouldn't be. |
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 16:37:44 GMT
Who should be the first member of the ethnically english clan and how will he/she and future members vote on new applicants? Now we are moving into denigration mode and implying that English as an ethnic group did not and does not exist and that it is something new, when it clearly is not. Can you not do better with reasoned debate? No but logically if the members of the clan are to have a say on new members there has to be a mechanism for so doing and given that membership has not been established yet, someone has to be number one who admits number 2 who agree to admit 3 etc etc. I don't see how else this would work in practice. Out of interest once we have established current membership of "ethnic english", do you think it is likely they would vote in any new members with black skin? |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 16:48:14 GMT
It is called assimilation, which is the absorption into the whole free of any encumbrances. It does not matter what teh ethnic English think at this point it only matters what he believes and what the ethnic French believe. Ethnicity is a process of being not specifically a process of having been. I'm not talking about him being French, I'm asking if he would be English? Your own criteria suggests he wouldn't be. No it does not read what I said. Ethnicity is a fluid thing but it needs mutual acceptance. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 17:01:33 GMT
Now we are moving into denigration mode and implying that English as an ethnic group did not and does not exist and that it is something new, when it clearly is not. Can you not do better with reasoned debate? No but logically if the members of the clan are to have a say on new members there has to be a mechanism for so doing and given that membership has not been established yet, someone has to be number one who admits number 2 who agree to admit 3 etc etc. I don't see how else this would work in practice. Out of interest once we have established current membership of "ethnic english", do you think it is likely they would vote in any new members with black skin? In native American situations there may need to be a process involving blood quantum etc however I have made clear what is 'required' you neither need to make an application nor is there an interview and certificate of acceptance. In the same way that an ethnic minority does not need to state what he is. As I keep saying I knew several people as children whose ethnic origins certainly appeared to have African origins at some point. They thought they were Scottish and no one queried it as the issue never arose as we did not have race laws nor a need to have an identity. The ethnic English are not established, they just happen to exist just as ethnic Australians exist, ethnic groups exist in South America, ethnic Jews exist and Palestinians as an ethnic group exist. These people you have no quibble with accepting they exist yet when it comes to ethnic English you seem to not wish them to be, why is that? |
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 17:12:37 GMT
But you are saying, Sandy that the english have to accept that someone who wants to be english can be english. So what is that process. How will I know if I have been accepted. Simply that person believing he is english is apparently not enough. And you say you foresee a time in the future when englishness does get used to convey some sort of right so clearly certainty of having been accepted as english is critical to being able to sleep soundly at night. Not sure you have thought this through.
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