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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 18:01:25 GMT
Not sure here Bentley. I guess if they claim asylum then they are not breaking the law until their claim is dismissed. Its quite common in law that mitigating circumstances are considered before prosecution. So should someone breaking immigration law in order to reach a country and claim asylum be treated as a criminal. Don't misunderstand me. I am not claiming that all those who make an asylum claim are genuine. Imo paying criminals to traffick people illegally across borders makes you complicit in criminal activity . Yours is a valid opinion. Many think that a refugee should be someone stumbling over a border clutching their children. I think its more complex. However I do agree that we need to re-look at what we consider a deserving cause. Is starvation a good enough reason when someone comes from a country that repeatedly has more children than it can support. Sandy is not referring to asylum seekers who only represent a tiny proportion of migrants. He is referring to a mysterious unknown group who by their very nature cannot be asylum seekers. . |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 18:02:31 GMT
Not sure here Bentley. I guess if they claim asylum then they are not breaking the law until their claim is dismissed. Its quite common in law that mitigating circumstances are considered before prosecution. So should someone breaking immigration law in order to reach a country and claim asylum be treated as a criminal. Don't misunderstand me. I am not claiming that all those who make an asylum claim are genuine. Imo paying criminals to traffick people illegally across borders makes you complicit in criminal activity . However IMO if you think that they are not criminals then you are agreeing that they should be debated on this thread . He flows like the river with eyes open.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 18:02:38 GMT
I remember a while back Tesco estimated there were about 2 million more people living here than shown in censuses. But many of those simply refuse to be counted. Also that number was over decades. I find your claim exaggerated, so do you have any evidence to support it. Or the idea that if we stopped legal migration an extra 6-700,000 illegal ones would replace them Remind me what claim have I made? That illegal migrants would replace in similar numbers any legal migrants the government chose to stop. |
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Post by bancroft on Dec 9, 2023 18:21:15 GMT
We can agree we have no idea how many illegals are here and still disagree on that number being anywhere near to numbers we have invited. We have invited around 10 million migrants since 1980. Now you can filibuster all you wish, but we would have noticed an extra10 million people living and working in the black market. Really? Only if you are taking knocked off products or are using their services. I get cabs currently, no smart phone as with a head injury get pain so can't use Uber and so phone a cab. Done this about 20 times and all are foreigners and will only take cash. All over the place, Asia, Africa and Balkans. No problems yet. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 9, 2023 18:24:25 GMT
"That illegal migrants would replace in similar numbers any legal migrants the government chose to stop."
That's not improbable given the number of visitor visas that the UK government issues each year, almost 2 million in the year ending September 2023. Each one arrives from a country for which a visa is required (i.e. not the USA, the EU, Canada etc) and each is a potential overstayer. If legal routes were shut down the temptation to arrive on a visitor visa and just disappear would be hard to resist.The same is true even for non-visa countries like Brazil, never mind India, Pakistan and Nigeria (who all need visas). |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 19:32:56 GMT
"That illegal migrants would replace in similar numbers any legal migrants the government chose to stop."
That's not improbable given the number of visitor visas that the UK government issues each year, almost 2 million in the year ending September 2023. Each one arrives from a country for which a visa is required (i.e. not the USA, the EU, Canada etc) and each is a potential overstayer. If legal routes were shut down the temptation to arrive on a visitor visa and just disappear would be hard to resist.The same is true even for non-visa countries like Brazil, never mind India, Pakistan and Nigeria (who all need visas). Well yes. If you count those the government give leave to come here, count them in but never count them out. I would have to assume this mythical government that stopped normal immigration would also stop handing out visas like confetti. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 9, 2023 19:56:28 GMT
The former needs to come before the latter to avoid the large incentive to 'forget' halfway through (again). When / if we get immigration under control (and permanantly), we can start sensibly talking about giant housing projects. At the moment such talk is like ten carts before one horse. Yes when are you going to stop immigration or are you just going to let them keep coming? I'm beginning to think you don't want young English couples to be able to afford a home. I bet you want the whole world living here 20 to a room. Filling up those run down ramshackle properties you own. You see how it looks? I keep on talking about actually dealing substantially with the situation and you keep batting it aside. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 9, 2023 20:24:48 GMT
"That illegal migrants would replace in similar numbers any legal migrants the government chose to stop."
That's not improbable given the number of visitor visas that the UK government issues each year, almost 2 million in the year ending September 2023. Each one arrives from a country for which a visa is required (i.e. not the USA, the EU, Canada etc) and each is a potential overstayer. If legal routes were shut down the temptation to arrive on a visitor visa and just disappear would be hard to resist.The same is true even for non-visa countries like Brazil, never mind India, Pakistan and Nigeria (who all need visas). Well yes. If you count those the government give leave to come here, count them in but never count them out. I would have to assume this mythical government that stopped normal immigration would also stop handing out visas like confetti. That same government would also have to confront the electoral blowback from the ten million or so New Britons who will demand visas for their relatives to visit them.
There doesn't seem to be any way out of this particular quandary.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 20:52:35 GMT
Yes when are you going to stop immigration or are you just going to let them keep coming? I'm beginning to think you don't want young English couples to be able to afford a home. I bet you want the whole world living here 20 to a room. Filling up those run down ramshackle properties you own. You see how it looks? I keep on talking about actually dealing substantially with the situation and you keep batting it aside. Don't keep talking about it, get on with it. You keep expecting me to stop them while you waffle platitudes. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 20:58:39 GMT
Well yes. If you count those the government give leave to come here, count them in but never count them out. I would have to assume this mythical government that stopped normal immigration would also stop handing out visas like confetti. That same government would also have to confront the electoral blowback from the ten million or so New Britons who will demand visas for their relatives to visit them.
There doesn't seem to be any way out of this particular quandary.
Only because the people on here want all in a day. Anything less is considered to be evidence you want the whole world here. I often considered having an intelligent conversation about how we reduce both immigration and the worlds population (because almost every problem we face comes down to too many humans) but I fear here is not the place as most want to look good and score cheap shots. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 21:07:52 GMT
That same government would also have to confront the electoral blowback from the ten million or so New Britons who will demand visas for their relatives to visit them.
There doesn't seem to be any way out of this particular quandary.
Only because the people on here want all in a day. Anything less is considered to be evidence you want the whole world here. I often considered having an intelligent conversation about how we reduce both immigration and the worlds population (because almost every problem we face comes down to too many humans) but I fear here is not the place as most want to look good and score cheap shots. I do not think so, te problem is teh world population but we can do absolutely nothing about that other than action deemed unacceptable in teh extreme. So we have to deal with potential fall out and shutting up shop, strengthening borders, spending on the military, expelling incomers with no right to be here is the way to care for family and friends who are the be all and end all of survival. The world will go to hell in a hand cart and many will clamour to escape to the UK until we are bulging at the seams and with the 5th column already in our midst through the invasion force we may have internal problems as well as external. It is a disaster well under way in the making. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 21:17:43 GMT
Only because the people on here want all in a day. Anything less is considered to be evidence you want the whole world here. I often considered having an intelligent conversation about how we reduce both immigration and the worlds population (because almost every problem we face comes down to too many humans) but I fear here is not the place as most want to look good and score cheap shots. I do not think so, te problem is teh world population but we can do absolutely nothing about that other than action deemed unacceptable in teh extreme. So we have to deal with potential fall out and shutting up shop, strengthening borders, spending on the military, expelling incomers with no right to be here is the way to care for family and friends who are the be all and end all of survival. The world will go to hell in a hand cart and many will clamour to escape to the UK until we are bulging at the seams and with the 5th column already in our midst through the invasion force we may have internal problems as well as external. It is a disaster well under way in the making. And here we are at our destination humans. Once again reach for the guns. how many times must we learn the lesson. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 9, 2023 21:32:48 GMT
That same government would also have to confront the electoral blowback from the ten million or so New Britons who will demand visas for their relatives to visit them.
There doesn't seem to be any way out of this particular quandary.
Only because the people on here want all in a day. Anything less is considered to be evidence you want the whole world here. I often considered having an intelligent conversation about how we reduce both immigration and the worlds population (because almost every problem we face comes down to too many humans) but I fear here is not the place as most want to look good and score cheap shots. Why not start a thread in the Mind Zone putting forward your ideas on reducing both immigration and world population. The mods are quite effective in keeping such conversations on track. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 22:20:17 GMT
Only because the people on here want all in a day. Anything less is considered to be evidence you want the whole world here. I often considered having an intelligent conversation about how we reduce both immigration and the worlds population (because almost every problem we face comes down to too many humans) but I fear here is not the place as most want to look good and score cheap shots. Why not start a thread in the Mind Zone putting forward your ideas on reducing both immigration and world population. The mods are quite effective in keeping such conversations on track. Sorry too many closed minds on here. Too many scoring cheap shots to impress. Too many interested in minute mistakes you make compared to the big picture. And finally the endless strawmen. "You said A but you meant B " My thinking requires viewing the big picture and saying then learning. Too many looking for your one mistake to show you're stupid. You and Sandy are the only ones I would consider for such a debate, but it would drown in the others. Best keep it to migrants and asylum seekers all bad. English all good. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2023 22:25:40 GMT
LOL - biggest cop-out I have ever heard in my life..  |
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