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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 16:11:11 GMT
I disagree. The numbers are vastly different, the results are vastly different. Its a ridiculous premise. Not to mention why one would be dependent on the other. Why haven't we had 750,000 illegals as well as 750,000 invited to live here. Well confirm the number of illegals we have had with sources please and then we can judge? Don't be stupid. Either we don't know about them in which case you can't stop them because you don't know who they are. Or they applied for asylum in which case they are counted and far less than those we invited. And if we don't know who they are, they don't get housing benefit or NHS treatment, they don't clog our schools of GP surgeries. So if its OK with you I'd like to focus on stopping the ones our government invites in as that at least seems feasible. In fact I believe Orac is going to do it for us as I failed to. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 16:13:14 GMT
Not at that point in the discussion but you raised the issue of withdrawing permission, in other words reducing or stopping legal migration, I said that would only create a greater number of those arriving without permission i.e. illegal migrants. If we wish to control migration we have to control the whole caboodle. What you refuse to discuss is neither here nor there as 'immigration' is a problem irrespective of how they arrive. Well said. The authoritarianism over what is allowed to be discussed gets tiring, just as their hypocrisy, double-standards and lies gets boring. If they want the platform exclusively to themselves then they should build their own echo-chambers. It never seems to tire you, nor put you off discussing everything apart from the thread subject. Talk about boring. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 16:17:32 GMT
The former needs to come before the latter to avoid the large incentive to 'forget' halfway through (again). When / if we get immigration under control (and permanantly), we can start sensibly talking about giant housing projects. At the moment such talk is like ten carts before one horse. Yes when are you going to stop immigration or are you just going to let them keep coming? I'm beginning to think you don't want young English couples to be able to afford a home. I bet you want the whole world living here 20 to a room. Filling up those run down ramshackle properties you own. You see how it looks? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 16:23:32 GMT
Well said. The authoritarianism over what is allowed to be discussed gets tiring, just as their hypocrisy, double-standards and lies gets boring. If they want the platform exclusively to themselves then they should build their own echo-chambers. It never seems to tire you, nor put you off discussing everything apart from the thread subject. Talk about boring. I merely dislike those who dictate the flow of discussion everytime they're left stumped for words, which is most frequent. Somebody brought it up, I agreed with it. The reason for this is because Sandypine touched on an important issue, where to compartmentalise everything for convenience and simplicity loses sight of the bigger picture, which some may refer to as reality. I won't reciprocate to your personal abuse. I was speaking in general terms. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 16:33:47 GMT
Well confirm the number of illegals we have had with sources please and then we can judge? Don't be stupid. Either we don't know about them in which case you can't stop them because you don't know who they are. Or they applied for asylum in which case they are counted and far less than those we invited. And if we don't know who they are, they don't get housing benefit or NHS treatment, they don't clog our schools of GP surgeries. So if its OK with you I'd like to focus on stopping the ones our government invites in as that at least seems feasible. In fact I believe Orac is going to do it for us as I failed to. So basically you agree we have no idea how many illegals are here so making statements that legal migration is greater is unproveable. As regards housing etc then the black market in all sorts of things exists, including false papers entitling one to all sorts of things. We know not if they get housing benefit but we know in the main they must occupy residences of some sort as there was a programme produced that investigated the illegal conversion of garages with the promise to investigate further, I think it was channel 4. Further investigation did not materialise and the suspicion is that pressure was brought to bear not to dig too deeply into back garden living nor houses of multiple occupancy most especially in the cities with high immigrant populations. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 17:27:22 GMT
Don't be stupid. Either we don't know about them in which case you can't stop them because you don't know who they are. Or they applied for asylum in which case they are counted and far less than those we invited. And if we don't know who they are, they don't get housing benefit or NHS treatment, they don't clog our schools of GP surgeries. So if its OK with you I'd like to focus on stopping the ones our government invites in as that at least seems feasible. In fact I believe Orac is going to do it for us as I failed to. So basically you agree we have no idea how many illegals are here so making statements that legal migration is greater is unproveable. As regards housing etc then the black market in all sorts of things exists, including false papers entitling one to all sorts of things. We know not if they get housing benefit but we know in the main they must occupy residences of some sort as there was a programme produced that investigated the illegal conversion of garages with the promise to investigate further, I think it was channel 4. Further investigation did not materialise and the suspicion is that pressure was brought to bear not to dig too deeply into back garden living nor houses of multiple occupancy most especially in the cities with high immigrant populations. We can agree we have no idea how many illegals are here and still disagree on that number being anywhere near to numbers we have invited. We have invited around 10 million migrants since 1980. Now you can filibuster all you wish, but we would have noticed an extra10 million people living and working in the black market. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 17:31:53 GMT
It never seems to tire you, nor put you off discussing everything apart from the thread subject. Talk about boring. I merely dislike those who dictate the flow of discussion everytime they're left stumped for words, which is most frequent. Somebody brought it up, I agreed with it. The reason for this is because Sandypine touched on an important issue, where to compartmentalise everything for convenience and simplicity loses sight of the bigger picture, which some may refer to as reality. I won't reciprocate to your personal abuse. I was speaking in general terms. Incidentally I did not say it could not be discussed. I said I would not discuss it. You are the one trying to force me to do so with your dictatorial attitude. The thread is labelled Legal immigration for the reason those who created it wished to talk about legal immigration. And personally I'll speak to whom I wish when I wish thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 17:37:08 GMT
I merely dislike those who dictate the flow of discussion everytime they're left stumped for words, which is most frequent. Somebody brought it up, I agreed with it. The reason for this is because Sandypine touched on an important issue, where to compartmentalise everything for convenience and simplicity loses sight of the bigger picture, which some may refer to as reality. I won't reciprocate to your personal abuse. I was speaking in general terms. Incidentally I did not say it could not be discussed. I said I would not discuss it. You are the one trying to force me to do so with your dictatorial attitude. The thread is labelled Legal immigration for the reason those who created it wished to talk about legal immigration. And personally I'll speak to whom I wish when I wish thank you. It's a lie to claim that I have suggested otherwise. I merely agreed with Sandypine, which is what you're objecting to, whilst tryng to twist it to mean something else entirely. If Sandypine wants to address the bigger picture then he is free to do so. If I want to agree with Sandypine then I am free to do so.
EDIT: Stop fibbing and playing the victim, I made it quite clear that I was speaking in general terms.
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Post by Bentley on Dec 9, 2023 17:39:23 GMT
Afaik some posters dispute that the migrants who pay criminal traffickers to put them on rubber dinghies to cross the channel are not illegal immigrants .
Until there is a general agreement that these migrants have not committed a criminal act then we should include them in this thread
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 17:43:50 GMT
Incidentally I did not say it could not be discussed. I said I would not discuss it. You are the one trying to force me to do so with your dictatorial attitude. The thread is labelled Legal immigration for the reason those who created it wished to talk about legal immigration. And personally I'll speak to whom I wish when I wish thank you. It's a lie to claim that I have suggested otherwise. I merely agreed with Sandypine, which is what you're objecting to, whilst tryng to twist it to mean something else entirely. If Sandypine wants to address the bigger picture then he is free to do so. If I want to agree with Sandypine then I am free to do so. Au contraire oh victim one. You stated how you disliked what I did in a post targeting me. While at the same time 'as usual' adding nothing to the conversation. There was nothing stopping you responding to this 'important issue' instead of requiring me to do so. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 17:49:18 GMT
So basically you agree we have no idea how many illegals are here so making statements that legal migration is greater is unproveable. As regards housing etc then the black market in all sorts of things exists, including false papers entitling one to all sorts of things. We know not if they get housing benefit but we know in the main they must occupy residences of some sort as there was a programme produced that investigated the illegal conversion of garages with the promise to investigate further, I think it was channel 4. Further investigation did not materialise and the suspicion is that pressure was brought to bear not to dig too deeply into back garden living nor houses of multiple occupancy most especially in the cities with high immigrant populations. We can agree we have no idea how many illegals are here and still disagree on that number being anywhere near to numbers we have invited. We have invited around 10 million migrants since 1980. Now you can filibuster all you wish, but we would have noticed an extra10 million people living and working in the black market. How would we have noticed it? There are many measures that indicate a greater increase in population from over 500% increase in rice eaten per person since 1970s to toilet paper use estimates placing the UK population at well over 10 million of official estimates. It is also interesting that several of these old articles have disappeared including an Independent one as regards food consumption |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 17:49:50 GMT
Afaik some posters dispute that the migrants who pay criminal traffickers to put them on rubber dinghies to cross the channel are not illegal immigrants . Until there is a general agreement that these migrants have not committed a criminal act then we should include them in this thread Not sure here Bentley. I guess if they claim asylum then they are not breaking the law until their claim is dismissed. Its quite common in law that mitigating circumstances are considered before prosecution. So should someone breaking immigration law in order to reach a country and claim asylum be treated as a criminal. Don't misunderstand me. I am not claiming that all those who make an asylum claim are genuine. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 17:54:59 GMT
We can agree we have no idea how many illegals are here and still disagree on that number being anywhere near to numbers we have invited. We have invited around 10 million migrants since 1980. Now you can filibuster all you wish, but we would have noticed an extra10 million people living and working in the black market. How would we have noticed it? There are many measures that indicate a greater increase in population from over 500% increase in rice eaten per person since 1970s to toilet paper use estimates placing the UK population at well over 10 million of official estimates. It is also interesting that several of these old articles have disappeared including an Independent one as regards food consumption I remember a while back Tesco estimated there were about 2 million more people living here than shown in censuses. But many of those simply refuse to be counted. Also that number was over decades. I find your claim exaggerated, so do you have any evidence to support it. Or the idea that if we stopped legal migration an extra 6-700,000 illegal ones would replace them |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 9, 2023 17:55:03 GMT
Afaik some posters dispute that the migrants who pay criminal traffickers to put them on rubber dinghies to cross the channel are not illegal immigrants . Until there is a general agreement that these migrants have not committed a criminal act then we should include them in this thread Not sure here Bentley. I guess if they claim asylum then they are not breaking the law until their claim is dismissed. Its quite common in law that mitigating circumstances are considered before prosecution. So should someone breaking immigration law in order to reach a country and claim asylum be treated as a criminal. Don't misunderstand me. I am not claiming that all those who make an asylum claim are genuine. Imo paying criminals to traffick people illegally across borders makes you complicit in criminal activity . However IMO if you think that they are not criminals then you are agreeing that they should be debated on this thread . |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 17:56:10 GMT
How would we have noticed it? There are many measures that indicate a greater increase in population from over 500% increase in rice eaten per person since 1970s to toilet paper use estimates placing the UK population at well over 10 million of official estimates. It is also interesting that several of these old articles have disappeared including an Independent one as regards food consumption I remember a while back Tesco estimated there were about 2 million more people living here than shown in censuses. But many of those simply refuse to be counted. Also that number was over decades. I find your claim exaggerated, so do you have any evidence to support it. Or the idea that if we stopped legal migration an extra 6-700,000 illegal ones would replace them Remind me what claim have I made? |
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