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Post by Vinny on Nov 17, 2022 23:17:02 GMT
Oracle75, only the Commission can write policy in the EU, they decide what goes into it. The Parliament can make requests of them. But, only the Commission can write policy. Every Commissioner of ours since the EU came into existence in 1993 was chosen by a government that had lost EU elections, therefore a government without mandate at EU level chose the Commissioner to propose policies to the EU, not the winning party. Now, our government has control over fishing and we can sack our government if we are unhappy. The benefit of sovereignty is that voters can change things. Obviously we still work with other countries, we always did, we did in World War One! We should not have shut down our coal fired power stations until we had equivalent capacity in the grid, simple as that. And another thing, this biomass scandal at Drax in Yorkshire: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001cw6zThe decision to replace UK mined coal with American biomass chopping down whole forests, transporting them to chipping facilities on diesel powered lorries, shipping them to ports on diesel powered trains, transporting them across the oceans on oil powered freighters, that was FUCKING CRAZY. And we should have been able to vote against that. energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/oil-gas-and-coal/eu-coal-regions/coal-regions-transition_enIt's a very dangerous and badly thought out policy from the EU which contrary to the intentions is doing more harm to the environment than coal ever did. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 17, 2022 23:17:31 GMT
Yep, an unfunny meme with a misspelt word sums up Brexit perfectly, Doc. Good man! never mind ... how about something for you sad millennials?  Oh look another moderator that thinks rule 3 doesn't apply to him and his pals  |
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Post by Steve on Nov 17, 2022 23:20:27 GMT
I agree that leaving the EU has exposed the damage it has done to british politics, where we can now see another layer of the problem. The progressive breakdown of democracy through a small stepped strategy obviously required reversing if we are to ever make it work again. If one is keen on the idea of democracy then leaving the EU was one major step in the right direction. 'The wider public now think Britain was wrong to leave the European Union by 56% to 32%'. As a keen democrat, what percentage of the population do you think should hold the opinion that leaving the EU was a mistake before the government is required to take action to undo some of the damage through attempts to rejoin the SM and CU, for example? We're at 32%/56% at the moment. In your best democratic opinion, what percentage should it be? 60%? 70%? yes the polls do say 56:32 and while those are hard to ignore levels, it's not as simple as that The reality has always been that Leavers have tended to be far more passionate about their wish than Remainers so a 56:32 poll sounds dramatic but IF (unwisely) we had another referendum now the result would still be close. So don't expect Labour (and certainly not the Tories) to put Brexit into the mix for the next election. It's IF the financials continue to show problems and IF the EU doesn't lean towards lunacy, that it might feature in a 2028 General Election (or might not). |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 17, 2022 23:23:54 GMT
Parliamentary terms are typically five years, and although the fixed term parliaments act has been repealed (to make it easier to call early elections), it's likely that the General Election after next will be in 2029. We're all entitled to opinions, but check the numbers Steve  |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 23:29:32 GMT
'The wider public now think Britain was wrong to leave the European Union by 56% to 32%'. As a keen democrat, what percentage of the population do you think should hold the opinion that leaving the EU was a mistake before the government is required to take action to undo some of the damage through attempts to rejoin the SM and CU, for example? We're at 32%/56% at the moment. In your best democratic opinion, what percentage should it be? 60%? 70%? yes the polls do say 56:32 and while those are hard to ignore levels, it's not as simple as that The reality has always been that Leavers have tended to be far more passionate about their wish than Remainers so a 56:32 poll sounds dramatic but IF (unwisely) we had another referendum now the result would still be close. So don't expect Labour (and certainly not the Tories) to put Brexit into the mix for the next election. It's IF the financials continue to show problems and IF the EU doesn't lean towards lunacy, that it might feature in a 2028 General Election (or might not). Well, many of us didn't expect Brexit to start trending again quite so soon. But here we are, with Brexit now being mentioned reasonably frequently again in the news media. You may be surprised. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 23:31:27 GMT
Oracle75, only the Commission can write policy in the EU, they decide what goes into it. The Parliament can make requests of them. But, only the Commission can write policy. Every Commissioner of ours since the EU came into existence in 1993 was chosen by a government that had lost EU elections, therefore a government without mandate at EU level chose the Commissioner to propose policies to the EU, not the winning party. Now, our government has control over fishing and we can sack our government if we are unhappy. The benefit of sovereignty is that voters can change things. Obviously we still work with other countries, we always did, we did in World War One! We should not have shut down our coal fired power stations until we had equivalent capacity in the grid, simple as that. And another thing, this biomass scandal at Drax in Yorkshire: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001cw6zThe decision to replace UK mined coal with American biomass chopping down whole forests, transporting them to chipping facilities on diesel powered lorries, shipping them to ports on diesel powered trains, transporting them across the oceans on oil powered freighters, that was FUCKING CRAZY. And we should have been able to vote against that. energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/oil-gas-and-coal/eu-coal-regions/coal-regions-transition_enIt's a very dangerous and badly thought out policy from the EU which contrary to the intentions is doing more harm to the environment than coal ever did. And the EU parliament can reject what the commission suggests. Throw it out entirely. So can the Council which is also elected. The UK government has caused a 50% fall in the value of its fishing. And if it keeps making trade deals like the one with Australia, there wont be any agriculture worth having in the country either. As I said, sovereignty is rubbish if the government is incapable of governing. Biomass is a tiny part of electricity generation.most of it comes from nuclear generation and the price held very steady until this year, for reasons to do with Russia. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 23:34:54 GMT
yes the polls do say 56:32 and while those are hard to ignore levels, it's not as simple as that The reality has always been that Leavers have tended to be far more passionate about their wish than Remainers so a 56:32 poll sounds dramatic but IF (unwisely) we had another referendum now the result would still be close. So don't expect Labour (and certainly not the Tories) to put Brexit into the mix for the next election. It's IF the financials continue to show problems and IF the EU doesn't lean towards lunacy, that it might feature in a 2028 General Election (or might not). Well, many of us didn't expect Brexit to start trending again quite so soon. But here we are, with Brexit now being mentioned reasonably frequently again in the news media. You may be surprised. Perhaps because the sales pitch as always in terms of fair weather. It fails at the first strong wind. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 17, 2022 23:37:30 GMT
Yes, but MEPs cannot propose policies of their own volition.
The fact remains that the EU Commission are very heavily lobbied by corporations, the Parliament a rubber stamp for the Commission's policies.
It does not closely engage with the voters.
There are enormous flaws with the organisation, it's badly run, desperately in need of reform and our presence in it was not helping matters.
You might not be happy with the situation, that is your right.
And you are within your rights to campaign to rejoin if you so wish.
I am a democrat, I support you having the right to do so at the ballot box.
BUT, having only just left, I am more interested in starting to undo the damage membership did.
I'm more interested in reforming agricultural policy. Fisheries policy.
I want to ban super-trawlers from our waters. We could not do that as members.
We couldn't even ban the sale of foie gras as members as the EU set our food standards.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 23:47:38 GMT
Well, many of us didn't expect Brexit to start trending again quite so soon. But here we are, with Brexit now being mentioned reasonably frequently again in the news media. You may be surprised. Perhaps because the sales pitch as always in terms of fair weather. It fails at the first strong wind. Not sure I follow. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 18, 2022 0:32:28 GMT
Yes, but MEPs cannot propose policies of their own volition. The fact remains that the EU Commission are very heavily lobbied by corporations, the Parliament a rubber stamp for the Commission's policies. It does not closely engage with the voters. There are enormous flaws with the organisation, it's badly run, desperately in need of reform and our presence in it was not helping matters. You might not be happy with the situation, that is your right. And you are within your rights to campaign to rejoin if you so wish. I am a democrat, I support you having the right to do so at the ballot box. BUT, having only just left, I am more interested in starting to undo the damage membership did. I'm more interested in reforming agricultural policy. Fisheries policy. I want to ban super-trawlers from our waters. We could not do that as members. We couldn't even ban the sale of foie gras as members as the EU set our food standards. Tell us what system you would use to harmonise laws/standards across the EU, Vinny. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 18, 2022 7:56:26 GMT
Yes, but MEPs cannot propose policies of their own volition. The fact remains that the EU Commission are very heavily lobbied by corporations, the Parliament a rubber stamp for the Commission's policies. It does not closely engage with the voters. There are enormous flaws with the organisation, it's badly run, desperately in need of reform and our presence in it was not helping matters. You might not be happy with the situation, that is your right. And you are within your rights to campaign to rejoin if you so wish. I am a democrat, I support you having the right to do so at the ballot box. BUT, having only just left, I am more interested in starting to undo the damage membership did. I'm more interested in reforming agricultural policy. Fisheries policy. I want to ban super-trawlers from our waters. We could not do that as members. We couldn't even ban the sale of foie gras as members as the EU set our food standards. It is dishonest to make an accusation, then admit it is false and change the subject. BTW an MEP may indeed make an individual proposal. But it has to pass via the Commission. Otherwise you could theoretically have 705 individual proposals, which is impossible. All governmental bodies in every country and effective unit is heavily lobbied. IIR it wasn't long ago that Owen Patterson hit the rocks because of that very thing. I just said that the EU parliament can veto commission proposals. You agreed by your "yes" and are now accusing it of rubber stamping the proposals. You are contradicting yourself in your desperation to find fault with the EU. As a democrat myself I am satisfied that an educated vote should be respected. But I am not satisfied that a vote based on misinformation can cause long-term damage to an entire nation. As the UK is now beginning to realise. What surprises me is that as time has passed and Boris has had his moment in the sun, and has been found to be frivolous, dishonest, irresponsible, superficial and selfish, that there are those who still think he did the country a favour. Nigel has run off, Rees-Mogg can't find anything to report when asked to find benefits in Brexit and the post created for him has now disappeared, and Liz Truss who was supposed to provide the UK with a promising trading future, is clearly an economic disaster. The great future in fishing has been a farce, farmers are waiting for the huge competition Truss opened up with Australia, there has been barely any real international investment in The UK since 2016 and the country has the slowest growth in the developed world. Now where are the benefits? I refuse to accept a serious fall in my living standards because there is lobbying in the EU or because enough people are misinformed about the nitpicking details of the EU democratic process. And it seems that more and more people are coming to realise the same. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 18, 2022 8:01:58 GMT
I refuse to accept a serious fall in my living standards because there is lobbying in the EU or because enough people are misinformed about the nitpicking details of the EU democratic process. And it seems that more and more people are coming to realise the same. Well I would like to refuse to accept a serious fall in my living standards due to the the ridiculous covid furlough scheme and the obsession with Net zero - so any ideas how we go about implementing this refusal?...  |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 18, 2022 8:05:43 GMT
Utter nonsense. Still, I suppose it's no surprise that people who support the EU have no understanding of economics. Greece (and all countries in the Eurozone) have no control of their currency which removes most of the levers that can be used to regulate the economy. They can't devalue the euro. So Greece are trading with a very overvalued currency which has caused a massive recession. Their GDP has halved from 2008. They can't use QE like we did when we hit trouble. And they could only borrow from the ECB/ESM (and briefly from the IMF) and the EU imposed austerity conditions on Greece and very high interest rates - so they're in a debt trap. Contrast that with the UK. We had problems in 2008 also but we printed money and slashed interest rates. We had very low unemployment rates and very few businesses went bust. And inflation also remained low (surprisngly). Sterling declined of course but that helped recovery. If you look at Greece they lost a large number of businesses, unemployment ballooned and they're in a debt spiral from which they will never emerge - unless the EU write off their debts, Which they should do since the EU has caused their debts by the way they handled the 2008 bust. Which approach do you prefer? Accepting that you're in a hole, like we did, and effectively devaluing our currency. Or refusing to accept that you're in a hole and carry on as before and bankrupting the country. That's what happened to Greece because they had literally no way out. The single currency did NOT "support their economies" - it put them in a straitjacket. Do you EUphiles ever LEARN from history? I didn't say poorer countries had control over their CURRENCY. I said they had control over their ECONOMIES. It is up to them how they generate growth, via mechanisms such as corporation tax, special rates on buying up land to develop, or helping to open up new markets. Developing infrastructure. It is also up to them to decide what kind of a country it wants to be. It is getting on well enough now, the economy has stabilised and almost every country in the world lives on debt. The USA debt is over 1 trillion dollars. Leave Greece alone. And perhaps you should stop trying to tell them how to run their country. There is a great deal of wisdom in valuing quality of life over quantity. And finally, a bit less attitude from you might be appreciated. Jeez, what utter bollocks. Do you EU fanatics ever read the papers - apart from the guardian of course. For a start, control of the currency and money supply is integral to the control of the economy. If you can't control your currency you're pretty much lost. It's also not true that you can control your taxes - the EU has regulations on corporation tax and VAT for example. In fact it was the EU that demanded that every member country adopt VAT rather than a simpler sales tax - so that they could skim off tax into their own coffers. As for Greece "getting on well enough now" are you fucking blind or stupid? You don't know anything about Greece. Have you any idea what happens when your country's GDP HALVES? I suggest you tell the Greeks to "value quality of life over quantity". FFS. Or even better go and tell them how the "euro has supported their economy". You wouldn't get out alive you dummy. The visceral hatred that the Greeks have for the euro is off the scale. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 18, 2022 8:17:22 GMT
Oracl75 said: "I refuse to accept a serious fall in my living standards because there is lobbying in the EU or because enough people are misinformed about the nitpicking details of the EU democratic process".
Consistency isn't your forte is it Oracle? (BTW I suggest you change your monicker because you AIN'T an oracle). You've just said that when Greece's GDP halved they were "getting on well enough now, the economy has stabilised". Highly amusing. So would you think it was OK if the UK's GDP halved? Wages would plummet, unemployment would soar. It would be catastrophic.
Sorry "oracle" but your posts are utter nonsense from beginning to end. It's almost impossible to reply to them because you're all over the place and so much is nonsense.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 18, 2022 8:25:26 GMT
Oracle75, every MP in the House of Commons (650) can put forward a Private Members Bill.
Every MP can put forward an early day motion.
Our system is by no means perfect, but it is better.
Your position, you're afraid, aren't you?
Don't be.
Project fear was wrong.
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