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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2022 21:28:53 GMT
It's ok to not agree with me, I just didn't get a feeling that we were much of a democracy before the referendum. I still don't think we're much of one now. Did we have a say over agricultural policy? www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/25/eu.politics2No. We had the CAP. And kept getting vetoed when our elected government got nowhere at the EU. Did we have a say over fisheries policy? No, we had the Common Fisheries Policy and kept getting vetoed there too so that foreign fishermen could fish our waters. Did we have a say over immigration policy Steve ? No, we had EU free movement. In many policy areas we had little to no say, as voters. EU policies such as coal divestment left us with a shortage of electrical generation in the grid. energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/oil-gas-and-coal/eu-coal-regions/coal-regions-transition_enThe shortage of locally generated electricity and dependence on imported electricity has pushed electricity prices up. And despite the EU introducing MEPs, they made no difference to us as voters. The CAP was not reformed, the CFP was not reformed. In 2016 the referendum gave us, the people, a voice. It was the start of something, not the end of something. Voting shouldn't just be an election time thing. There's still a lot of work ahead. We're still not much of a democracy. I'd like a referendum on the voting system, with PR and FPTP as the options. I agree that leaving the EU has exposed the damage it has done to british politics, where we can now see another layer of the problem. The progressive breakdown of democracy through a small stepped strategy obviously required reversing if we are to ever make it work again. If one is keen on the idea of democracy then leaving the EU was one major step in the right direction.
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Post by Toreador on Nov 17, 2022 21:33:00 GMT
It's ok to not agree with me, I just didn't get a feeling that we were much of a democracy before the referendum. I still don't think we're much of one now. Did we have a say over agricultural policy? www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/25/eu.politics2No. We had the CAP. And kept getting vetoed when our elected government got nowhere at the EU. Did we have a say over fisheries policy? No, we had the Common Fisheries Policy and kept getting vetoed there too so that foreign fishermen could fish our waters. Did we have a say over immigration policy Steve ? No, we had EU free movement. In many policy areas we had little to no say, as voters. EU policies such as coal divestment left us with a shortage of electrical generation in the grid. energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/oil-gas-and-coal/eu-coal-regions/coal-regions-transition_enThe shortage of locally generated electricity and dependence on imported electricity has pushed electricity prices up. And despite the EU introducing MEPs, they made no difference to us as voters. The CAP was not reformed, the CFP was not reformed. In 2016 the referendum gave us, the people, a voice. It was the start of something, not the end of something. Voting shouldn't just be an election time thing. There's still a lot of work ahead. We're still not much of a democracy. I'd like a referendum on the voting system, with PR and FPTP as the options. Your best chance is with Reform UK, it's one of their policies.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 17, 2022 21:35:24 GMT
"For many years we had no say over how we are governed" that is exactly how I have felt. It has been like having a musical, and being able to change the cast, but not the script. Until the referendum things never really felt that democratic to me because so many important decisions were being made on our behalf by Commission. And we couldn't elect someone to the Commission on our behalf, that's one of the failings of the system. The Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the Common External Tariff, the immigration system, the VAT system. VAT is a sales tax, it adds to the cost consumers pay, in some cases for essential items. Companies can claim back VAT. The public are the ones who pay it. There's been no public consultation about how we tax or at what rate. It's just one of those things "that we have to accept". Coal divestment occurred without public consultation. Hell, even privatisation of electricity, whether you agree with it or not, occurred without public consultation. The voting system, not due to the EU, is also fairly undemocratic, 56.4% of voters did not vote for our government. Proportional Representation would be better. We've never had a vote on this matter.
We had a vote on AV, but AV is not PR. Almost nobody I spoke to before the AV referendum understood what AV was or how it works so they all voted for what they knew.
You're entitled to your opinions, and I'll defend your right to hold them.
These are my opinions. Emphasis, OPINIONS.
This is how I feel.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 21:35:26 GMT
I agree that leaving the EU has exposed the damage it has done to british politics, where we can now see another layer of the problem. The progressive breakdown of democracy through a small stepped strategy obviously required reversing if we are to ever make it work again. If one is keen on the idea of democracy then leaving the EU was one major step in the right direction. 'The wider public now think Britain was wrong to leave the European Union by 56% to 32%'. As a keen democrat, what percentage of the population do you think should hold the opinion that leaving the EU was a mistake before the government is required to take action to undo some of the damage through attempts to rejoin the SM and CU, for example? We're at 32%/56% at the moment. In your best democratic opinion, what percentage should it be? 60%? 70%?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2022 21:59:16 GMT
I think you're mistaking what the wider public think with something else.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 22:06:25 GMT
I think you're mistaking what the wider public think with something else. Okay, the wider public thinks leaving the EU was a mistake. That's not the same as the wider public wanting to rejoin. But, if the wording of the next Yougov poll were reworded to ask if people would like to rejoin the CU and SM, at what percentage point do you think the Government should be required to take steps in that direction? Of course, one poll wouldn't be sufficient, so let's assume there is a discernable trend in several polls over a six month period in favour of rejoining the CU and SM. At what percentage would you, as a committed democrat, say it's time to have another referendum? Those polls are bound to appear sooner than later, so will you be saying it's time when the polls are consistently showing 60%? 70%? When?
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 17, 2022 22:15:19 GMT
Oh FFS stop crying in your beer. You dont need an opinion poll to join the Single Market, Customs Union, the EU or to have another referendum - all you need is for a political party to espouse that and for enough people to vote for them.
If you are that bothered, get on the boat, come to the UK and start your own pro-EU political party - you will then no doubt be elected with a landslide...
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 22:19:00 GMT
Oh FFS stop crying in your beer. You dont need an opinion poll to join the Single Market, Customs Union, the EU or to have another referendum - all you need is for a political party to espouse that and for enough people to vote for them. If you are that bothered, get on the boat, come to the UK and start your own pro-EU political party - you will then no doubt be elected with a landslide... I predict your outbursts will become even more uncontrolled as the damage becomes more apparent, Doc. I expect you'll be regularly fitting and hyper-ventilating in this section by this time next month.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 17, 2022 22:24:13 GMT
Oh FFS stop crying in your beer. You dont need an opinion poll to join the Single Market, Customs Union, the EU or to have another referendum - all you need is for a political party to espouse that and for enough people to vote for them. If you are that bothered, get on the boat, come to the UK and start your own pro-EU political party - you will then no doubt be elected with a landslide... I predict your outbursts will become even more uncontrolled as the damage becomes more apparent, Doc. I expect you'll be regularly fitting and hyper-ventilating in this section by this time next month. LOL - I got what I wanted you lost... As the great sage once said...
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 22:25:23 GMT
I predict your outbursts will become even more uncontrolled as the damage becomes more apparent, Doc. I expect you'll be regularly fitting and hyper-ventilating in this section by this time next month. LOL - I got what I wanted you lost... As the great sage once said... Yep, an unfunny meme with a misspelt word sums up Brexit perfectly, Doc. Good man!
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 17, 2022 22:32:24 GMT
LOL - I got what I wanted you lost... As the great sage once said... Yep, an unfunny meme with a misspelt word sums up Brexit perfectly, Doc. Good man! never mind ... how about something for you sad millennials?
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 22:42:23 GMT
"For many years we had no say over how we are governed" that is exactly how I have felt. It has been like having a musical, and being able to change the cast, but not the script. Until the referendum things never really felt that democratic to me because so many important decisions were being made on our behalf by Commission. And we couldn't elect someone to the Commission on our behalf, that's one of the failings of the system. The Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the Common External Tariff, the immigration system, the VAT system. VAT is a sales tax, it adds to the cost consumers pay, in some cases for essential items. Companies can claim back VAT. The public are the ones who pay it. There's been no public consultation about how we tax or at what rate. It's just one of those things "that we have to accept". Coal divestment occurred without public consultation. Hell, even privatisation of electricity, whether you agree with it or not, occurred without public consultation. The voting system, not due to the EU, is also fairly undemocratic, 56.4% of voters did not vote for our government. Proportional Representation would be better. We've never had a vote on this matter.
We had a vote on AV, but AV is not PR. Almost nobody I spoke to before the AV referendum understood what AV was or how it works so they all voted for what they knew.
You're entitled to your opinions, and I'll defend your right to hold them.
These are my opinions. Emphasis, OPINIONS.
This is how I feel.
The commission does not make decisions. It makes suggestions which are worked and reworked by the parliament which you vote for. The commission cannot vote on any of those laws. Your feelings were based on your misunderstanding of the EU. Almost all the issues you mention above are decided nationally, not by the EU. And the only time you get to exercise your voice in the UK is every five years. There is a loud voice wanting a general election right now but the country has to wait another 2 and 1/2years and accept what it is given in the meantime.You or I don't get a chance to vote on them. So much for public participation.so much for the "we can always vote them out" nonsense. Either you accept representative democracy or you go off and live in a commune. If that is true for the national government process, why is it wrong for the EU process? In fact in the UK those who suggest laws ALSO can vote on them and often under the whip's "encouragement".Hardly democratic. To enjoy complete sovereignty you have to go back to a time in which you didn't have any communication with anyone else and the government was competent. It has been a thousand years since the first of these and at least 6 years since the last. Recent history has shown that elected prime ministers are completely incompetent and need their hand holding. It has also shown that the way the Tories elect a leader of the party is a joke. Before you take down the EU's organisation, it might be a good idea to redesign the one in the UK. On that issue I agree with your criticism of it.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 17, 2022 22:49:36 GMT
Yep, an unfunny meme with a misspelt word sums up Brexit perfectly, Doc. Good man! never mind ... how about something for you sad millennials? Have a heart, Doc! Not a Loser Gif! Where's your humanity?!
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 22:49:59 GMT
oracle75 I never saw why we had to pay 9bn euros to belong to a club to which we had a huge trade deficit. What do you think the EU does with that money? It invests a lot of it in its members' economies. Ireland used to be practically a second world country. The EU invested a proportion of those 'membership fee's' in its infrastructure and education system and its economy boomed. The result is that the UK now has a trade surplus with Ireland of £21 billion. That's right: £21 billion!!! .The EU created a lot of wealth for the UK when it invested in Ireland's economy. That's where the membership fees go. They're partially invested to make everyone richer. The EU is currently working to replicate its success in Ireland in Eastern Europe. Imagine the wealth that will be created when their economies really take off. Of course, the UK is no longer paying membership fees to invest in those economies, so it can't expect a share in the spoils. Not to worry, though, it has swapped all that for trade deals with Australia and New Zealand that will actually harm the UK's economy. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8173/I did not post the remark about the 9 billion or a trade deficit. IIR it was Vinny who posted it. As time goes on it is becoming clear what fools the country believed and how flawed the politicians were. They promised what the country wanted to hear with absolutely no realistic chance of providing it. Well it's too late now. But making the best of it will never be as successful as staying in.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 17, 2022 22:58:09 GMT
It's ok to not agree with me, I just didn't get a feeling that we were much of a democracy before the referendum. I still don't think we're much of one now. Did we have a say over agricultural policy? www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/25/eu.politics2No. We had the CAP. And kept getting vetoed when our elected government got nowhere at the EU. Did we have a say over fisheries policy? No, we had the Common Fisheries Policy and kept getting vetoed there too so that foreign fishermen could fish our waters. Did we have a say over immigration policy Steve ? No, we had EU free movement. In many policy areas we had little to no say, as voters. EU policies such as coal divestment left us with a shortage of electrical generation in the grid. energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/oil-gas-and-coal/eu-coal-regions/coal-regions-transition_enThe shortage of locally generated electricity and dependence on imported electricity has pushed electricity prices up. And despite the EU introducing MEPs, they made no difference to us as voters. The CAP was not reformed, the CFP was not reformed. In 2016 the referendum gave us, the people, a voice. It was the start of something, not the end of something. Voting shouldn't just be an election time thing. There's still a lot of work ahead. We're still not much of a democracy. I'd like a referendum on the voting system, with PR and FPTP as the options. And today who has control over the UK's fishing? Who is controlling immigration? I don't see any benefit coming from being "sovereign". The UK has to work WITH other countries to solve the problems. And your comments about dépendance on centrally generated electricity is untrue. It would cost far more to go back to locally sourced coal and all that pollution in involves.
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