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Post by Vinny on Nov 19, 2023 12:01:51 GMT
Regarding Muslims, can't speak for everyone here but I do know a few Muslims and it's absolutely absurd to ignore the problems of Islamism. There's been too many terrorist plots. Too many people bullied. Too many honour killings. Too many rape victims. Islamists need to be confronted by the majority and told fit in or get out of our society. We will not stand for abuse. Rape / murder a girl? Life in prison. Plot terrorism? Life in prison. Attempt to kill an apostate? Life in prison. Kill an apostate? Life in prison. And I mean WHOLE life. Call for the killing of blasphemers? Life in prison. Support terrorism? Life in prison. Change the law if necessary. But stand up against modern fascism. The Muslims I have known have pretty much been decent people. But I cannot speak for all of them anymore than you can. And of course anyone - Muslim or not - committing such crimes should be harshly punished. Who would suggest otherwise? What there is however is a tendency to tar all Muslims with that brush which is just plain wrong. I am not tarring all, am I? What I am doing is addressing a problem and saying extremists should have nothing to hide behind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 12:07:20 GMT
Why are you associating me with such laws? I and my comrades are not in power. And it does seem to be you lot who do most of the obsessing about it. The 'enforcement' is not coming from the elected government or laws presently, it is coming from various layers of managerial 'middle-ware' . The government are ineffectual at the moment (tory). The impetus to make laws and enforce this gibberish with fines etc is coming from the left, not the right. Not from me or my former comrades it isnt. Perhaps you are mistaking me for a Starmerite soft thatcherite, extremist liberal identity politics type. Affluent middle class liberals who read the Guardian are the types you are thinking of, not struggling working class socialist champions of the working classes like me. Be certain about who you are talking about. And who you are not. I am not the one obsessing about such issues. It does seem to be the right who want to make this into some sort of culture war, mostly because it plays well to their elderly Tory base, so well represented on this very forum.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 12:11:01 GMT
The Muslims I have known have pretty much been decent people. But I cannot speak for all of them anymore than you can. And of course anyone - Muslim or not - committing such crimes should be harshly punished. Who would suggest otherwise? What there is however is a tendency to tar all Muslims with that brush which is just plain wrong. I am not tarring all, am I? What I am doing is addressing a problem and saying extremists should have nothing to hide behind. Well I agree. Extremists and bad actors of all kinds always use some form of ideology to hide behind, whether it be political or religious. Some use Islam. Others socialism. Others Nationalism. It is not the creed or ideology at fault really, but the use of it by extremists to justify evil. And that is the problem that will always need addressing.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 19, 2023 12:15:51 GMT
SRB said: " If that is the best you can do, you havent got much. None of that constitutes a conspiracy theory, and some of it rests upon risible and simplistic assumptions of your own, eg the notion that people like me have supposedly "sold our souls" to Islam. When in fact all we are guilty of is believing that just because someone is a Muslim does not make them automatically bad. You appear to be observing this live and let live attitude of ours towards Muslims through the prism of what appears to be your own innate Islamophobia". The trouble with having a "live and let live" attitude towards muslims is that they don't reciprocate it. The lesson of history is that muslims cannot live with any other religion - or even different sects of their own religion. Why do you think India was partitioned? And why do you think that large parts of Africa and the Middle East are afflicted by civil wars? Farage was talking last week about the hate marches were possibly the precursor to "religious wars" in the UK. And Farage has a very good track record of being right. You accuse people of "islamophobia" but maybe you could tell us exactly which bits of the Islamic ideology you like? Is it the treatment of women or homosexuals for example? I'm afraid, SRB, that you don't seem to be able to see "reality" yourself. You just dismiss things that don't fit your own ideology. So Nadine Dorries is "mad" and everything she said is wrong, but from what I've read (in the serialisation) seems to be perfectly plausible and some of it has been corroborated (on the record) by IDS, who said that the treatment of Boris was exactly what he received - and by the same people. I've only heard one of Nadine's claims being disputed - the gold wallpaper nonsense - and Nick Robinson has had to apologise for that because she was dead right. This was just one of many lies told to discredit Boris. And that is the problem right there. The thinking patterns of a bigot, tarring an entire group - in this cases Muslims - with the same brush.Because I personally have known Muslims who do have a live and let live attitude to those around them. So I recognise a bigoted and false assumption here right away. To say some Muslims do not have a live and let live attitude might be legitimate. Though the same thing could in varying degrees be said about almost all groups. But to assume this is true about all of them without a second thought as you have just done is the epitome of prejudiced assumptions in action. I get so bored with this Leftist argument that "they're not ALL like this". Of course not. But there are generalisations that can be made about various groups of people. For example 90% of terrorism is perpetrated by muslims. That indicates to me that there is something about their ideology that encourages terrorism - and if you've ever bothered to read the Koran you'll see the reason for their addiction to terrorism. It's not bigotry - it's called science. Science looks for correlations and when it finds them it tries to work out why. And the reason in this case is that the Koran tells the muslims to "kill the Kuffar wherever you find them". If you're waiting for ALL terrorism to be committed by muslims and ALL muslims to be terrorists, that will of course never happen. The question for you is how extreme does the correlation have to be before you start to understand that these are dangerous people.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 19, 2023 12:16:14 GMT
Back when we were members our manufacturing industry was on its knees. It's absurd to suggest that we aren't better off, of course we are. The reduction in the value of the pound has made British exports more competitive. And there are no tariff barriers there's a free trade agreement. Can't believe you didn't realise that we have a free trade agreement with the EU. There is a free trade agreement in goods but it does not apply fully to services which has traditionally been our main export in recent decades. And customs barriers impose delays and a whole heap of bureaucracy, and the free trade is contingent upon companies proving that their goods conform to EU standards. All this imposes additional costs whose effects mimic those of tariffs by making it more costly to export and import. The former might have been eased by a fall in the value of the pound but this has made the latter even worse. Which does not help manufacturers needing to import raw materials. And the simple fact is that growth is lower, inflation is higher, and our economy is smaller than it would otherwise have been, as demonstrated by the ONS. But seriously, how good or bad Brexit is is surely an issue for another thread, which is why I initially ignored the topic here. UK exports to EU 2015: www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/ukperspectives2016tradewiththeeuandbeyond/2016-05-25£223.3 billion at 2015 prices which inflation adjusted to today's prices works out at £297 billion. Inflation calculator here, by all means check: www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculatorNow, that's the benchmark, anything less is failure, agreed? UK exports to EU 2022: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/£340 billion. It's clear that the FTA works, and that the service industry has survived and is thriving. Not only that, our exports to the rest of the world have gone up. 2016 UK exports to the USA: www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21£99.6 billion. Inflation adjusted, this would be £130.6 billion now. 2022 UK exports to the USA: £177.2 billion www.great.gov.uk/markets/united-states/2016 UK exports to Canada £8.3 billion, inflation adjusted this would be £10.8 billion now. 2022 UK exports to Canada £15.1 billion. It's working. You might not wish it to be (because that would mean us not going back) but it is working.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 19, 2023 12:22:57 GMT
I am not tarring all, am I? What I am doing is addressing a problem and saying extremists should have nothing to hide behind. Well I agree. Extremists and bad actors of all kinds always use some form of ideology to hide behind, whether it be political or religious. Some use Islam. Others socialism. Others Nationalism. It is not the creed or ideology at fault really, but the use of it by extremists to justify evil. And that is the problem that will always need addressing. Back in the 1990's and early 2000's a sort of cultural relativism existed in politics in which extremists were not confronted, because of ethnicity and cultural issues. There was a profound fear of being accused of racism. And that created a culture of cowardice in which young girls were raped and also mentally abused and also a culture in which terrorists started to appear under our noses. All it takes is one determined Islamist being let off, for quite a lot of people to be injured or killed. What is being done about extremism in schools? There were riots on British streets in 2001 and Labour said at the time they would change things. What did they change? They did nothing to confront the Islamists at all. It wasn't until the 2010s that Anjem Choudary got banged up, and even the Tories have let him out again! We're governed by cowards. All my adult life we have been.
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Post by Orac on Nov 19, 2023 12:24:09 GMT
The 'enforcement' is not coming from the elected government or laws presently, it is coming from various layers of managerial 'middle-ware' . The government are ineffectual at the moment (tory). The impetus to make laws and enforce this gibberish with fines etc is coming from the left, not the right. Not from me or my former comrades it isnt. Perhaps you are mistaking me for a Starmerite soft thatcherite, extremist liberal identity politics type. Affluent middle class liberals who read the Guardian are the types you are thinking of, not struggling working class socialist champions of the working classes like me. Be certain about who you are talking about. And who you are not. I am not the one obsessing about such issues. It does seem to be the right who want to make this into some sort of culture war, mostly because it plays well to their elderly Tory base, so well represented on this very forum. I am pretty certain what i'm talking about and you seem to looking through a rather strong distorting lens. For reference, none of my comments should taken as applying directly to your personal opinions. However, pretending they do is a technique you have used previously to avoid. The move to make such law is c oming from the left, not the right. The left wing opposition to Starmer in the Labour party are in favour of making such law, so your attempt to pretend the problem is (somehow) restricted to him and his wing is a bit silly. Ludicrously, you also attempt to suggest that people who object to these various moves are 'creating a culture war', as if resisting,. objecting or disagreeing is 'causing the problem'. This is just an example of the tactic of 'forbidding objection or disagreement, a tactic I outlined a couple of days ago.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 19, 2023 12:58:50 GMT
SRB said " But the existence of large numbers of Remainers is one thing. Few would dispute that. It is the notion that they are the ones secretly in charge, in the pay of the EU, and that the entire establishment is actively conspiring to sabotage us for the benefit of the EU which is rather more dubious. That is venturing into conspiracy theory territory." There was a concerted campaign to remove Boris, basically by dirty tricks, from government because they knew that he was the main obstacle to dragging us back into the EU. Heseltine openly rejoiced when Boris was forced out because he said that opened the way to rejoin the EU. Boris was finished by the BBC's year long campaign on Partygate (when he went to NO parties) and Pinchergate (where Lord Macdonald accused Boris of lying about Pincher on the BBC - which was untrue also). Virtually all the Brexiteers have now been removed from govt by various means. Raab was removed by the Civil Service bullying etc.. The attempt to install Truss as PM was foiled by the Treasury (she sacked Scholar), the OBR (she snubbed them), the BoE (who deliberately sold gilts into a saturated market) and Sunak (who briefed against her in the city). It was nothing to do with her budget which actually borrowed far less than Sunak did. Truss had to be stopped because she actually IS pro-Brexit. All of these are people/bodies that are stuffed full of EU supporters. Sunak is the EU's man. He claims to support Brexit but his actions say otherwise. He never campaigned for Brexit and he has never done anything to take advantage of Brexit. He said that within 100 days he would repeal all of EU laws - but has repealed none. His only action has been to agree the "Windsor Frame-up") which has effectively permanently locked NI into the single market and makes it highly unlikely that Stormont will reopen. Sunak has basically given the NI to the EU. The return of "Lord" Cameron is also another nail in the coffin of taking any advantage of Brexit. Just as the installation of Sunak as PM was almost certainly arranged by the EU, I'd say that Cameron's return has their fingerprints all over it. Remember the EU has a track record of installing "technocrat" PMs - ask Italy. And they're influencing the politics of Poland by trying to install their own man (Tusk) by bribery using EU grants. They also bribe various powerful people in the UK - Mandelson and the Kinnocks for example receive very nice pensions from the EU (which we pay!) which are dependent on "the continuing support of the EU's interests". I'm surprised that you're so naive about the way the EU works. The EU has always been a criminal organisation that operates by bribery and threats. This is not unusual in powerful political organisations. The EU doesn't even bother to try to cover it up much. Jean-Claude Junker was well known for dodgy dealings. Classic conspiracy theory thinking right there. Boris was forced out not because of anything to do with the EU but because of his own serial dishonesty bringing parliament and his party into utter disrepute, to the point where he was being widely recognised by his own MPs as having become a liability. To put it even more bluntly, he was removed for being hopelessly crap at his job, and a charlatan of poor character. Yet somehow, none of that matters. It is all just part of a plot by Remainers. You seem incapable of recognising reality in any other way than through the prism of your own conspiracy theory, where everything that happens or doesnt happen is all part of the same EU/Remainer plot. Nothing much seems to happen that you don't interpret as in some way connected to it. You are a conspiracy theorist utterly obsessed with the overarching, all encompassing nature of the conspiracy. If David Cameron were to fart at the cabinet table, you'd probably see it as an attempt to gas Brexiteers out of the room, lol Bollocks. You just make a fool of yourself with your posts. I'm just looking at the facts rather than what the BBC tell you. The facts are that the people voted to leave the EU and, despite huge attempts from Parliament (and the Speaker and our courts) to prevent this happening Boris delivered. Since that time there has been absolutely nothing done take advantage of leaving the EU. Remember we were going to get rid of all the EU rules/laws and slash Corporation Tax etc. But Boris was prevented from doing that because neither of his chancellors (Javid and Sunak) agreed to to do it - and they had a lot of support from remainers in the Tory party. Instead various "bodies" mounted a campaign to remove Boris. The fact is that Boris wanted to pursue policies that the EU did not like. So he had to go. The chosen method was to mount a dirty tricks campaign - Partygate, Pinchergate etc. But none of these were actually based on fact. The police issued only one FPN against Boris (and Sunak) which was plainly a stitch up. But the BBC ran it at the top of their news for over a year. If that doesn't strike you as a bit fishy then consider what happened after Boris was forced out. Liz Truss won the election for next leader. This was NOT meant to happen. Sunak was the EU candidate. And, even worse, Truss was not going to mess about. She had a policy of "growth, growth, growth" and she was intent on slashing Corporation tax to 15% and opening up trade with her first budget. This is EXACTLY what the EU fears. The budget was actually received very well initially - until the pro-EU campaign moved in. I could explain what happened in detail but I don't think you know enough about finance to understand. Basically Sunak and his friends in the Treasury destabilised Sterling by predictions of unfunded tax cuts (which were no more than SUnak has done) and very high interest rates (which were always going to happen anyway) and the BoE decided to sell gilts into a saturated market. The BOE had absolutely no reason to do this (because it's all QE that can be held off-balance sheet for as long as they like) but they knew that it would precipitate a bond market crash. So the pro-EU forces had destroyed Truss's budget by removing the confidence of financial markets. Then the people who actually run the Tory party (whoever they are) and the darker forces that smear politicians attacked Truss (and her husband) with nasty stories, just like they did to Boris (and just as IDS said they did to him when he was leader of the party) and she quit. The Tory "high-ups" then set up a new election for leader that was designed to return ONLY one candidate. The understanding is that the Tory MPs have to return 2 candidates (so that the Tory membership can choose between the two) but they knew that if they returned Sunak and a donkey the donkey would win (quite rightly). So they set the bar so high that only Sunak went through - and Sunak apparently made a lot of promises to Braverman to get her support and backers so that he had more votes than Boris. So SUnak won. And we now have the situation where Sunak has given the EU Northern Ireland - which is what they always said was the price of the UK leaving the EU - and no EU laws have been repealed despite pledges to do this and we've RAISED CT - which is all exactly what the EU wanted. Now isn't that a great BIG FUCKING COINCIDENCE. You need to wake up SRB and start trying to understand what's obviously going on here. You have a lot of studying to do.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 19, 2023 13:21:43 GMT
Boris had no alternative to quit because of the Chris Pincher scandal.
He had made the serial groper Deputy Chief Whip, despite knowing of rumours about the man, which turned out to be true. Letters were sent to the 1922 Committee.
We know what happened next.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 13:44:11 GMT
And that is the problem right there. The thinking patterns of a bigot, tarring an entire group - in this cases Muslims - with the same brush.Because I personally have known Muslims who do have a live and let live attitude to those around them. So I recognise a bigoted and false assumption here right away. To say some Muslims do not have a live and let live attitude might be legitimate. Though the same thing could in varying degrees be said about almost all groups. But to assume this is true about all of them without a second thought as you have just done is the epitome of prejudiced assumptions in action. I get so bored with this Leftist argument that "they're not ALL like this". Of course not. But there are generalisations that can be made about various groups of people. For example 90% of terrorism is perpetrated by muslims. That indicates to me that there is something about their ideology that encourages terrorism - and if you've ever bothered to read the Koran you'll see the reason for their addiction to terrorism. It's not bigotry - it's called science. Science looks for correlations and when it finds them it tries to work out why. And the reason in this case is that the Koran tells the muslims to "kill the Kuffar wherever you find them". If you're waiting for ALL terrorism to be committed by muslims and ALL muslims to be terrorists, that will of course never happen. The question for you is how extreme does the correlation have to be before you start to understand that these are dangerous people. But you seem to be trying to imply that most Muslims are terrorists which is bigoted nonsense. There is nothing scientific about it. And most holy books contain dubious utterings. The bible for example thinks you should be killed just for calling your dad a twat, that you should be severely beaten for working on the sabbath, and that if the daughter of a priest becomes a prostitute she should be thrown alive into a furnace. Slaves are directed to obey their masters - which Christians in former time used to justify slavery. And so called witches and supposed heretics have been burned alive or otherwise murdered in the name of God. You see, religion itself isnt really the problem. It is the way evil people interpret it. Because both Koran and Bible have good bits and bad bits, which is generally why good Christians and Muslims do not believe in every literal word of it. And the Muslim caliphates were highly tolerant of other religions at a time when Christians were murdering each other over the slightest doctrinal differences. And until recent times Jewish minorities were far more persecuted in Christian countries than Muslim ones. Muslim hatred of Jews is a relatively modern phenomenon and is politically driven by the events in the former Palestine, with religion just used to justify it as bad actors will use anything convenient to justify their actions. And whilst throughout most of their history, Muslims were much more tolerant of others than Christians, more recently extremist interpretations of Islam used as a justification for evil appears to have arisen as a reaction to western dominance. But again religion is the excuse for evil, not the cause of it. But the Islamophobes will never recognise that. They are reluctant to evin recognise their own Islamophobia even as they express it.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 19, 2023 13:47:20 GMT
Boris had no alternative to quit because of the Chris Pincher scandal. He had made the serial groper Deputy Chief Whip, despite knowing of rumours about the man, which turned out to be true. Letters were sent to the 1922 Committee. We know what happened next. Says who? Says Lord Macdonald - a senior civil servant who Boris fired because he was useless. He accused Boris of lying and the BBC were very happy to give him a platform on the Today program. Boris says he didn't know about it - or had forgotten. He also probably couldn't give a monkey's about what a bunch of poofters get up to in bars. To say Boris had no "alternative but to quit" over such a trivial bit of nonsense is absurd. It's even more absurd than Boris having to resign because he got an FPN from the Met - so did Sunak FFS. Wake up. This was an absolutely obvious remainer plot to get rid Boris by a campaign of lies. The same thing happened to IDS.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 13:54:00 GMT
Not from me or my former comrades it isnt. Perhaps you are mistaking me for a Starmerite soft thatcherite, extremist liberal identity politics type. Affluent middle class liberals who read the Guardian are the types you are thinking of, not struggling working class socialist champions of the working classes like me. Be certain about who you are talking about. And who you are not. I am not the one obsessing about such issues. It does seem to be the right who want to make this into some sort of culture war, mostly because it plays well to their elderly Tory base, so well represented on this very forum. I am pretty certain what i'm talking about and you seem to looking through a rather strong distorting lens. For reference, none of my comments should taken as applying directly to your personal opinions. However, pretending they do is a technique you have used previously to avoid. The move to make such law is c oming from the left, not the right. The left wing opposition to Starmer in the Labour party are in favour of making such law, so your attempt to pretend the problem is (somehow) restricted to him and his wing is a bit silly. Ludicrously, you also attempt to suggest that people who object to these various moves are 'creating a culture war', as if resisting,. objecting or disagreeing is 'causing the problem'. This is just an example of the tactic of 'forbidding objection or disagreement, a tactic I outlined a couple of days ago. Lets gets things straight. We on the left support the rights of minorities, including trans people. I do. But we do not all obsess about it as some might and many of you on the right often do. Because what I suspect is probably going on is the usual elitist tactic of ratcheting up anger against powerless minorities as a deflection tactic away from those who are really most culpable for everything that is going wrong in Britain today. And you right wing robots can be guaranteed to fall in and cheerlead. In that sense it is a deliberately confected culture war, a problem whipped up out of all proportion to its miniscule scale to deflect anger onto target groups and away from the ruling elites.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 14:00:20 GMT
Classic conspiracy theory thinking right there. Boris was forced out not because of anything to do with the EU but because of his own serial dishonesty bringing parliament and his party into utter disrepute, to the point where he was being widely recognised by his own MPs as having become a liability. To put it even more bluntly, he was removed for being hopelessly crap at his job, and a charlatan of poor character. Yet somehow, none of that matters. It is all just part of a plot by Remainers. You seem incapable of recognising reality in any other way than through the prism of your own conspiracy theory, where everything that happens or doesnt happen is all part of the same EU/Remainer plot. Nothing much seems to happen that you don't interpret as in some way connected to it. You are a conspiracy theorist utterly obsessed with the overarching, all encompassing nature of the conspiracy. If David Cameron were to fart at the cabinet table, you'd probably see it as an attempt to gas Brexiteers out of the room, lol Bollocks. You just make a fool of yourself with your posts. I'm just looking at the facts rather than what the BBC tell you. The facts are that the people voted to leave the EU and, despite huge attempts from Parliament (and the Speaker and our courts) to prevent this happening Boris delivered. Since that time there has been absolutely nothing done take advantage of leaving the EU. Remember we were going to get rid of all the EU rules/laws and slash Corporation Tax etc. But Boris was prevented from doing that because neither of his chancellors (Javid and Sunak) agreed to to do it - and they had a lot of support from remainers in the Tory party. Instead various "bodies" mounted a campaign to remove Boris. The fact is that Boris wanted to pursue policies that the EU did not like. So he had to go. The chosen method was to mount a dirty tricks campaign - Partygate, Pinchergate etc. But none of these were actually based on fact. The police issued only one FPN against Boris (and Sunak) which was plainly a stitch up. But the BBC ran it at the top of their news for over a year. If that doesn't strike you as a bit fishy then consider what happened after Boris was forced out. Liz Truss won the election for next leader. This was NOT meant to happen. Sunak was the EU candidate. And, even worse, Truss was not going to mess about. She had a policy of "growth, growth, growth" and she was intent on slashing Corporation tax to 15% and opening up trade with her first budget. This is EXACTLY what the EU fears. The budget was actually received very well initially - until the pro-EU campaign moved in. I could explain what happened in detail but I don't think you know enough about finance to understand. Basically Sunak and his friends in the Treasury destabilised Sterling by predictions of unfunded tax cuts (which were no more than SUnak has done) and very high interest rates (which were always going to happen anyway) and the BoE decided to sell gilts into a saturated market. The BOE had absolutely no reason to do this (because it's all QE that can be held off-balance sheet for as long as they like) but they knew that it would precipitate a bond market crash. So the pro-EU forces had destroyed Truss's budget by removing the confidence of financial markets. Then the people who actually run the Tory party (whoever they are) and the darker forces that smear politicians attacked Truss (and her husband) with nasty stories, just like they did to Boris (and just as IDS said they did to him when he was leader of the party) and she quit. The Tory "high-ups" then set up a new election for leader that was designed to return ONLY one candidate. The understanding is that the Tory MPs have to return 2 candidates (so that the Tory membership can choose between the two) but they knew that if they returned Sunak and a donkey the donkey would win (quite rightly). So they set the bar so high that only Sunak went through - and Sunak apparently made a lot of promises to Braverman to get her support and backers so that he had more votes than Boris. So SUnak won. And we now have the situation where Sunak has given the EU Northern Ireland - which is what they always said was the price of the UK leaving the EU - and no EU laws have been repealed despite pledges to do this and we've RAISED CT - which is all exactly what the EU wanted. Now isn't that a great BIG FUCKING COINCIDENCE. You need to wake up SRB and start trying to understand what's obviously going on here. You have a lot of studying to do. The same old conspiracy theories again. To quote your first word, "bollocks" indeed. And if you think I trust the BBC you havent been paying attention, lol. So Truss's economic car crash which was predicted in advance by most sensible economists was not anything to do with her at all but was caused by the very invented conspiracy I detailed in my OP. Trying to debate sensibly with you is somewhat akin to trying to debate how Genesis cannot possibly be true to a Jehovah's Witness.
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Post by Orac on Nov 19, 2023 14:15:12 GMT
I am pretty certain what i'm talking about and you seem to looking through a rather strong distorting lens. For reference, none of my comments should taken as applying directly to your personal opinions. However, pretending they do is a technique you have used previously to avoid. The move to make such law is c oming from the left, not the right. The left wing opposition to Starmer in the Labour party are in favour of making such law, so your attempt to pretend the problem is (somehow) restricted to him and his wing is a bit silly. Ludicrously, you also attempt to suggest that people who object to these various moves are 'creating a culture war', as if resisting,. objecting or disagreeing is 'causing the problem'. This is just an example of the tactic of 'forbidding objection or disagreement, a tactic I outlined a couple of days ago. Lets gets things straight. We on the left support the rights of minorities, including trans people. I do. But we do not all obsess about it as some might and many of you on the right often do. Because what I suspect is probably going on is the usual elitist tactic of ratcheting up anger against powerless minorities as a deflection tactic away from those who are really most culpable for everything that is going wrong in Britain today. And you right wing robots can be guaranteed to fall in and cheerlead. In that sense it is a deliberately confected culture war, a problem whipped up out of all proportion to its miniscule scale to deflect anger onto target groups and away from the ruling elites. A lot of this seems to be going on in your head rather than in reality. You suspect people are doing x or y, while in reality they are merely in disagreement with someone intending to do something. In contrast to the things in your imagination, the left is talking about and implementing actual real-world enforcement (as a described), but try as anyone might, a kind of giant semantic blind spot protects you from ever addressing this fact in the conversation. Instead we repeatedly take a walk through a fairy tale.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 14:29:32 GMT
Lets gets things straight. We on the left support the rights of minorities, including trans people. I do. But we do not all obsess about it as some might and many of you on the right often do. Because what I suspect is probably going on is the usual elitist tactic of ratcheting up anger against powerless minorities as a deflection tactic away from those who are really most culpable for everything that is going wrong in Britain today. And you right wing robots can be guaranteed to fall in and cheerlead. In that sense it is a deliberately confected culture war, a problem whipped up out of all proportion to its miniscule scale to deflect anger onto target groups and away from the ruling elites. A lot of this seems to be going on in your head rather than in reality. You suspect people are doing x or y, while in reality they are merely in disagreement with someone intending to do something. In contrast to the things in your imagination, the left is talking about and implementing actual real-world enforcement (as a described), but try as anyone might, a kind of giant semantic blind spot protects you from ever addressing this fact in the conversation. Instead we repeatedly take a walk through a fairy tale. Shock horror. The left is speaking up for the rights of minorities. Whatever next!
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