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Post by Orac on Nov 19, 2023 14:53:55 GMT
A lot of this seems to be going on in your head rather than in reality. You suspect people are doing x or y, while in reality they are merely in disagreement with someone intending to do something. In contrast to the things in your imagination, the left is talking about and implementing actual real-world enforcement (as a described), but try as anyone might, a kind of giant semantic blind spot protects you from ever addressing this fact in the conversation. Instead we repeatedly take a walk through a fairy tale. Shock horror. The left is speaking up for the rights of minorities. I disagree. They are 'speaking up' for removing people's rights |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 19, 2023 15:03:47 GMT
I get so bored with this Leftist argument that "they're not ALL like this". Of course not. But there are generalisations that can be made about various groups of people. For example 90% of terrorism is perpetrated by muslims. That indicates to me that there is something about their ideology that encourages terrorism - and if you've ever bothered to read the Koran you'll see the reason for their addiction to terrorism. It's not bigotry - it's called science. Science looks for correlations and when it finds them it tries to work out why. And the reason in this case is that the Koran tells the muslims to "kill the Kuffar wherever you find them". If you're waiting for ALL terrorism to be committed by muslims and ALL muslims to be terrorists, that will of course never happen. The question for you is how extreme does the correlation have to be before you start to understand that these are dangerous people. But you seem to be trying to imply that most Muslims are terrorists which is bigoted nonsense. There is nothing scientific about it. And most holy books contain dubious utterings. The bible for example thinks you should be killed just for calling your dad a twat, that you should be severely beaten for working on the sabbath, and that if the daughter of a priest becomes a prostitute she should be thrown alive into a furnace. Slaves are directed to obey their masters - which Christians in former time used to justify slavery. And so called witches and supposed heretics have been burned alive or otherwise murdered in the name of God. You see, religion itself isnt really the problem. It is the way evil people interpret it. Because both Koran and Bible have good bits and bad bits, which is generally why good Christians and Muslims do not believe in every literal word of it. And the Muslim caliphates were highly tolerant of other religions at a time when Christians were murdering each other over the slightest doctrinal differences. And until recent times Jewish minorities were far more persecuted in Christian countries than Muslim ones. Muslim hatred of Jews is a relatively modern phenomenon and is politically driven by the events in the former Palestine, with religion just used to justify it as bad actors will use anything convenient to justify their actions. And whilst throughout most of their history, Muslims were much more tolerant of others than Christians, more recently extremist interpretations of Islam used as a justification for evil appears to have arisen as a reaction to western dominance. But again religion is the excuse for evil, not the cause of it. But the Islamophobes will never recognise that. They are reluctant to evin recognise their own Islamophobia even as they express it. Nobody is saying "most Muslims" are terrorists. But, there is self evidently a problem with Islam itself, which, if you read the Koran, contains verses calling for killing, that the Islamists (Islamic fundamentalists) see as fundamentally necessary to obey. There are of course problems with the teachings of other religions including Judaism and Christianity, but nobody is bending over backwards to appease those faiths.
Surah 9.29 is a pretty intolerant bit of text which calls for fighting and killing, there are many others like it.
But Labour and other left wing parties dare not talk about such things out of fear of causing offence.
And the Tories haven't exactly shown much spine either.
Start by making the school life of all school children, non theistic.
Teach tolerance and respect instead of hatred.
Teach not to believe in any book which teaches fighting and killing people who are simply "different".
And have a legal system with teeth, so that nobody who is hateful and violent can have a leg to stand on if they are involved in religiously motivated bullying or violence, or similar abusive crimes.
There is an Islamist far right in our country and it has killed.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 19, 2023 15:17:58 GMT
This isn’t an interview or interrogation.You are using a fallacy to support a lie and I refuse to indulge you . What the lefties should be doing is ask the honest question “ what can society do to make life better for men who believe that they are women “ . What they are doing is trying to force other people to indulge a delusion . For every “Can you understand how they might feel safer using the ladies?” there is “ Can you understand how women would not feel safer? “ It is however a debate, and a total failure or refusal or inability to be able to address a sensible question demonstrates that you have lost it. It was a leading question and I explained why the question was based on a fallacy .The fact that you don’t realise it reflects more on you than me . The fact that you either didn’t read of was incapable of understanding the post you replied to pretty much makes my point . |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 19, 2023 15:20:13 GMT
Notice he called people who disagree with the trans lie ‘ hard right ‘. Some of you are. Most culture warriors on the opposing side tend to be. You are the useful idiots of the people in charge who are milking us dry and destroying our country. After all, if they can keep you angry and foaming at the mouth about a tiny percentage of women with dicks, you are not going to be getting angry at the ones who are really responsible for all your problems. It is straight out of the establishment playbook of keeping the plebs angry at target groups of typically powerless people easy to demonise - trans people have become the latest such group, joining the ranks of asylum seekers, immigrants, welfare claimants, single mothers, the homeless, gypsies, and so on. If they can keep you angry about any or all of these, you'll have no time to nurture anger towards the ones with all the power who are really screwing us over in their own interests. After all consider this:- Who is most likely to be responsible for all our problems and the state we are in? The powerful ones making all the decisions and controlling everything? Or the powerless ones with no power to change anything and controlling nothing? Figure that one out and you might just conceivably direct your malice where it ought to be directed. But I won't hold my breath. You have after all seemingly invested a lifetime in swallowing their shit. Human psychology means your ego will resist any acceptance that you might have been misguided. So you will see me as the fool instead for pointing out the logically obvious. The lefties like are the culture warriors . Lefties try to peddle the trans lie as truth then insult sensible people who refute it . The fact that you deny it says more about you than me . |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 19, 2023 16:41:18 GMT
Then why are those on the Left wanting Laws that mandate access dependent on how the person in question sees themselves. You keep repeating this lie that it is right-wing people who indulge in identity politics but it is not the right wing who are enacting Laws to force their version of reality on the rest of us. You are agree to believe whatever alternate reality you wish but you cannot be surprised when people kick back once you start trying to force that alternate reality on everybody else. Why are you associating me with such laws? I and my comrades are not in power. And it does seem to be you lot who do most of the obsessing about it. Because it is the left that is demanding all these laws. There is certainly no demand from the Right, they are fighting a rearguard action against this alternate reality of the left. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 20, 2023 8:31:50 GMT
I get so bored with this Leftist argument that "they're not ALL like this". Of course not. But there are generalisations that can be made about various groups of people. For example 90% of terrorism is perpetrated by muslims. That indicates to me that there is something about their ideology that encourages terrorism - and if you've ever bothered to read the Koran you'll see the reason for their addiction to terrorism. It's not bigotry - it's called science. Science looks for correlations and when it finds them it tries to work out why. And the reason in this case is that the Koran tells the muslims to "kill the Kuffar wherever you find them". If you're waiting for ALL terrorism to be committed by muslims and ALL muslims to be terrorists, that will of course never happen. The question for you is how extreme does the correlation have to be before you start to understand that these are dangerous people. And most holy books contain dubious utterings. The bible for example thinks you should be killed just for calling your dad a twat, that you should be severely beaten for working on the sabbath, and that if the daughter of a priest becomes a prostitute she should be thrown alive into a furnace. Slaves are directed to obey their masters - which Christians in former time used to justify slavery. And so called witches and supposed heretics have been burned alive or otherwise murdered in the name of God. You see, religion itself isnt really the problem. It is the way evil people interpret it. 2. Because both Koran and Bible have good bits and bad bits, which is generally why good Christians and Muslims do not believe in every literal word of it.And the Muslim caliphates were highly tolerant of other religions at a time when Christians were murdering each other over the slightest doctrinal differences. And until recent times Jewish minorities were far more persecuted in Christian countries than Muslim ones. Muslim hatred of Jews is a relatively modern phenomenon and is politically driven by the events in the former Palestine, with religion just used to justify it as bad actors will use anything convenient to justify their actions. And whilst throughout most of their history, Muslims were much more tolerant of others than Christians, more recently extremist interpretations of Islam used as a justification for evil appears to have arisen as a reaction to western dominance. But again religion is the excuse for evil, not the cause of it. But the Islamophobes will never recognise that. They are reluctant to evin recognise their own Islamophobia even as they express it. 1. You use words very carelessly srb. I haven't implied anything at all - I have said that 90% of terrorism world wide is perpetrated by muslims, which is what's called a fact. Considering that muslims represent 24% (!) of the world's population that means that muslims are over 3 times over-represented in terrorism. In scientific terms that's what's called "significant" - in other words there MUST be a reason for it. That's called science, which you obviously have never studied 2. There are fundamental differences between Christianity/bible and Islam/koran. The Koran is regarded as the word of Allah as dictated to Mohammed. So there's little scope for "reforming" it - it's set in stone. Even attempts to "reinterpret" it (as the Ahmadi sect has done) are regarded as apostasy. By contrast the Bible is "reportage" written by various people and is by no means sacrosanct. In fact most of it is regarded as nonsense by clerics and the religion of Christianity has undergone considerable "reformation" over the centuries. For example very few Christians (a few loonies in America) believe the Bible's idea of creation (Adam and Eve etc), but any muslim who denies the similar account of creation in the Koran would be on dangerous territory. You can't deny the word of Allah. One of the reasons for the extent of terrorism among the muslims is because of a hadith (which are not written by Allah) that promises a special place in Jannah (Heaven) for those who kill the Kuffar/infidel. It would be a simple matter for the muslim scholars to come out and say that the hadith is "wrong" and reject it. This would almost certainly massively reduce the supply of gullible idiots who become suicide bombers. But any muslim who tried to do this would be declared an apostate and probably be beheaded pretty quickly. The idea that Islam is a tolerant religion is nonsense. Muslims are driving other religions out of their own countries. Do you know anything about the Middle East at all? The muslims can't even tolerate those of a different sect of Islam. For example the Sunnis are not very tolerant of Shias - to put it mildly. And the basic difference between these two sects is some extremely arcane argument about the succession to Mohammed over a millennium ago. This is how intractable their intolerance is. You need to try living in the Middle East for a few years - you might learn something. I am an "islamophobe" and happy to admit it. I dislike (and fear) the religion of islam because I know how dangerous it is. It's FAR more dangerous than Nazism. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 20, 2023 9:15:51 GMT
Bollocks. You just make a fool of yourself with your posts. I'm just looking at the facts rather than what the BBC tell you. The facts are that the people voted to leave the EU and, despite huge attempts from Parliament (and the Speaker and our courts) to prevent this happening Boris delivered. Since that time there has been absolutely nothing done take advantage of leaving the EU. Remember we were going to get rid of all the EU rules/laws and slash Corporation Tax etc. But Boris was prevented from doing that because neither of his chancellors (Javid and Sunak) agreed to to do it - and they had a lot of support from remainers in the Tory party. Instead various "bodies" mounted a campaign to remove Boris. The fact is that Boris wanted to pursue policies that the EU did not like. So he had to go. The chosen method was to mount a dirty tricks campaign - Partygate, Pinchergate etc. But none of these were actually based on fact. The police issued only one FPN against Boris (and Sunak) which was plainly a stitch up. But the BBC ran it at the top of their news for over a year. If that doesn't strike you as a bit fishy then consider what happened after Boris was forced out. Liz Truss won the election for next leader. This was NOT meant to happen. Sunak was the EU candidate. And, even worse, Truss was not going to mess about. She had a policy of "growth, growth, growth" and she was intent on slashing Corporation tax to 15% and opening up trade with her first budget. This is EXACTLY what the EU fears. The budget was actually received very well initially - until the pro-EU campaign moved in. I could explain what happened in detail but I don't think you know enough about finance to understand. Basically Sunak and his friends in the Treasury destabilised Sterling by predictions of unfunded tax cuts (which were no more than SUnak has done) and very high interest rates (which were always going to happen anyway) and the BoE decided to sell gilts into a saturated market. The BOE had absolutely no reason to do this (because it's all QE that can be held off-balance sheet for as long as they like) but they knew that it would precipitate a bond market crash. So the pro-EU forces had destroyed Truss's budget by removing the confidence of financial markets. Then the people who actually run the Tory party (whoever they are) and the darker forces that smear politicians attacked Truss (and her husband) with nasty stories, just like they did to Boris (and just as IDS said they did to him when he was leader of the party) and she quit. The Tory "high-ups" then set up a new election for leader that was designed to return ONLY one candidate. The understanding is that the Tory MPs have to return 2 candidates (so that the Tory membership can choose between the two) but they knew that if they returned Sunak and a donkey the donkey would win (quite rightly). So they set the bar so high that only Sunak went through - and Sunak apparently made a lot of promises to Braverman to get her support and backers so that he had more votes than Boris. So SUnak won. And we now have the situation where Sunak has given the EU Northern Ireland - which is what they always said was the price of the UK leaving the EU - and no EU laws have been repealed despite pledges to do this and we've RAISED CT - which is all exactly what the EU wanted. Now isn't that a great BIG FUCKING COINCIDENCE. You need to wake up SRB and start trying to understand what's obviously going on here. You have a lot of studying to do. The same old conspiracy theories again. To quote your first word, "bollocks" indeed. And if you think I trust the BBC you havent been paying attention, lol. So Truss's economic car crash which was predicted in advance by most sensible economists was not anything to do with her at all but was caused by the very invented conspiracy I detailed in my OP. Trying to debate sensibly with you is somewhat akin to trying to debate how Genesis cannot possibly be true to a Jehovah's Witness. Truss's budget was not an "economic car crash". Again you don't even seem to know the facts. Her budget was never even put to the test. What happened was that her budget was initially quite well received until there was a concerted attack on it by her own side - i.e. Sunak, the OBR, the BoE and the Treasury. But I can't think of any economists who attacked the budget - maybe you can name them? Sunak attacked it because he wanted to bring her down, but the criticisms he made (like rising interest rates) have happened anyway with his own budget - yet his measures have, apparently deliberately, cut growth. The OBR objected because it "was not costed" - which is what they do (very badly) - but the main cost of her budget was to support people with their energy bills, which SUnak had to do anyway. And what's the betting that Hunt cuts CT in the budget? Which is exactly what Truss wanted. The BoE began selling gilts which destabilised the bonds market leading to a collapse in pension funds, but that was THEIR decision - there was no need for them to this and it looks very fishy to me. It's almost as if it was done deliberately to make difficulties. Why else? Your problem is, srb, to come up with a rational explanation of why so many obstacles were put in the way of Brexit in the first place - and then, after we left the EU, there seems to have been NO attempt to take advantage of the freedoms of being out of the EU and nearly all of the Brexiteers seem to have been either sidelined or removed from government and the ONLY things that have been done by govt are EXACTLY what the EU would have wanted us to do. It's VERY strange. Is it a "conspiracy theory"? I think it must have been. Or it's a hell of a coincidence that we seem to be doing what the EU wants. But the thing is, srb, you like to dismiss things as conspiracy theories but has it not occurred to you that "conspiring" is exactly what politicians do most of the time? They form into little groups with their encrypted Whats Apps and plot against each other. And the internet is a very handy tool to spread disinformation. We're in a new age where conspiracy is very easy and also very easy to cover up. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 20, 2023 13:06:15 GMT
As a general rule when strange things happen you should "follow the money". You should ask why is this happening? The reason is usually because certain powerful people benefit from it. Why has the UK's attempt to leave the EU and forge a new economic future with high productivity and low taxes failed? Because that's what the EU have ALWAYS been shit-scared of. They have to prevent it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2023 14:16:17 GMT
I think I have said all I have had to say. Further responses to me and my responses back are going over the same ground repeatedly and it is getting boring now, so I am moving on to other threads.
Suffice it to say that those in the conspiracy theory bubble I am talking about will never see it and will insist on proving it without realising it whilst insisting I am the one talking shit, lol. To anyone outside their bubble on the other hand, their conspiracy theorising is pretty obvious. Nothing I, we, or they can say further will change anything. So true believers feel free to post any old shit you like from now on. It generally just proves my point without you realising it anyway.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 20, 2023 16:36:48 GMT
I notice you've stopped talking about the EU and Brexit after seeing economic benefits demonstrated from the ONS stats....
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Post by sheepy on Nov 20, 2023 17:31:49 GMT
Politicians are always the same they create alternative realities for themselves, while when public opinion turns against them, their followers of fashion repeat their mantras, which turns everyone off all the more. I find it rather amusing. At the moment they are running around turning public opinion against themselves for a pastime. For example, he says they have done as they said and halved inflation, but forgot to mention it is how they voted that created it.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 20, 2023 17:53:15 GMT
Adam Curtis produced an interesting video called HyperNormalisation about politicians creating alternate realities ..
It’s very long and very stylised ( like everything Curtis makes ) but it’s interesting and thought provoking .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2023 18:47:39 GMT
I notice you've stopped talking about the EU and Brexit after seeing economic benefits demonstrated from the ONS stats.... Brexit is a side issue here unless it forms part of someones alternate reality. In actual fact the size of our economy, growth rate, inflation rate and trade with our nearest neighbours are all worse than they would otherwise have been without Brexit. But I am not going to discuss it further with you here. Start a thread somewhere else about it and I will join you there, if not today then tomorrow. Whether or not Brexit has been good or bad is not itself part of any alternate, conspiracy driven reality, merely a matter of opinion which can be supported or criticised using statistics. When people start citing secret cabals of Remainers in the pay of the EU that starts heading into alternate realty territory. But opinions on the goodness or badness of Brexit itself do not. Hence my unwillingness to discuss it further in this thread. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 20, 2023 19:09:51 GMT
I notice you've stopped talking about the EU and Brexit after seeing economic benefits demonstrated from the ONS stats.... Brexit is a side issue here unless it forms part of someones alternate reality. In actual fact the size of our economy, growth rate, inflation rate and trade with our nearest neighbours are all worse than they would otherwise have been without Brexit. Kindly provide evidence to back up this claim. I've seen the ONS statistics. Those statistics do not support your claim. Therefore, your claim is an "alternate reality" isn't it? Admit, even you make mistakes. I make mistakes from time to time, but the ONS trade stats do not lie. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2023 19:17:02 GMT
Brexit is a side issue here unless it forms part of someones alternate reality. In actual fact the size of our economy, growth rate, inflation rate and trade with our nearest neighbours are all worse than they would otherwise have been without Brexit. Kindly provide evidence to back up this claim. I've seen the ONS statistics. Those statistics do not support your claim. Therefore, your claim is an "alternate reality" isn't it? Admit, even you make mistakes. I make mistakes from time to time, but the ONS trade stats do not lie. Kindly start a new thread and I will do so, probably tomorrow. I will not discuss it here for the reasons already stated. |
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