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Post by oracle75 on Nov 25, 2023 11:14:59 GMT
Whzn you remove all the temporary political, social and economic structures humans have put in place throughout history, the only alternate realities are
Who is in control and more powerful...you or me.
Sometimes the structures have succeeded in levelling the balance like trades unions, united nations human rights and the WTO. Ignoring them increases rhe probability of war.
But our skeletons are exactly like those of every life form...kill or be killed. Control or be controlled. Be powerful or be overpowered.
Sometimes i do think we are all part of an extraterrestrial video game...a matrix. Some still call it God.
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Post by Cartertonian on Nov 25, 2023 11:56:27 GMT
My point is that all of us occupy an 'alternative reality', a unique, individual understanding of the world that is based not on facts, but on a host of influences upon what we believe. Beliefs - whether spiritual or secular - are mostly grounded in what we are told and what we have experienced, not what is factual.
By way of example, your avatar infers that the Mayor of London is akin to Adolf Hitler. I get that it's intended to be (partly) humorous, as was my avatar from some years ago of Boris Johnson done up like a clown that upset a few people, but neither are factual.
The impression I get from both left and right is that each has a 'belief' (see my previous comment) that they are the oppressed and that the other has an agenda to maintain their subjugation.
It took two World Wars for humankind to begin appreciating that working together was preferable to fighting each other, but memories are fading. Alliances and unions are breaking up under the pretence of 'freedom', as smaller-scale strong men (and women) seek to restore 'control' to their own ever more isolated fiefdoms, often based on beliefs about cultural, social and ethnic homogeneity.
Left and right are chimeras in this regression. It is, as Oracle75 said, about who is in control and more powerful. It's another basic, primitive but nonetheless essential human instinct to fear others having control over you, but to allay those fears by seeking control over them is to take us all the way back to, "my tribe is better than your tribe".
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Post by Vinny on Nov 25, 2023 12:23:32 GMT
It took democracy to stop wars.
No democracy has ever invaded another democracy.
If the EU regresses towards dictatorship, by empowerment of the Commission rather than the Parliament, that is a danger, perhaps even of war.
They need to empower the voters and strengthen democratic public control of the EU. Or, repatriate power back to national democracies and work together by different methods.
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 12:26:34 GMT
First, a reminder to contributors: Orac commented that, "I would add to this that i think a potentially interesting discussion has been avoided by the OP By making things partisan, SRB is leading the conversation away from discussing the observation that society is dramatically fracturing into distinct world views." I would agree that this is the sort of potentially interesting discussion that should feature in the Mind Zone. We should be able to discuss it dispassionately and without partisanship, but sadly that seems to be a pipe dream, despite Tinc's additional rules. In my view, the distinct world views Orac talks about are as old as humanity. Human history is an eternal history of the conflict between oppressors and the oppressed, and 'world views' are forged by which side one is on. In pre-history it was, 'my tribe is better than your tribe'. Later, it was emperors and despots against those they subjugated. Then it was landowners and aristocracy against the peasantry. Post-industrial revolution it was factory owners versus workers. Then it was dictators against the World and all along, deep down, it has always been 'my tribe is better than your tribe'. In my teaching, I often reference Epictetus, 1st Century Greek philosopher, who said, "Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views they take of them". Nothing has changed in that regard. What has changed, that has accelerated divisions and thrown them into sharp relief, is access to knowledge. Prior to the internet age, knowledge was collated, curated and verified and the sources of that knowledge could be authenticated. Since the rise of social media, knowledge is universally accessible but it is no longer collated, curated and verifiable. And given that, deep down, we are still driven by the same primitive instincts that gave us 'my tribe is better than your tribe' in the first place, we latch on to information that reinforces our own 'alternate reality', and dismiss anything that does not. I think I disagree with this view. The tribe is a stage of development and there is nothing to suggest there is anything substantial for society beyond (or without) it. The various attempts to remove 'the tribe' from society have resulted in more chaos rather than peace. Society is the tribe. The cells in your body are (in a sense) a tribe, when wolves care for their young, they form a tribe. If you unwind the tribe, you rewind our development back to when every man (creature) had to watch his back every moment because he had no support or co-operation from anyone. You dare not sleep and you dare not rest or share - there is just you. on your own, crawling from food source to food source. Humans have reached a level of psychological development where not having a tribe would take dedication / force to splinter people. It's in our DNA and maybe for good reason. What i think you are envisioning is there being only one tribe with no outside - but this i think is a misunderstanding. Each tribe is partially a reaction to the possibility of another tribe - it is held in place by that possibility. There is a paradox here. If we were to somehow force a situation in which life on earth formed a single organism, the next thing that would happen would be the emergence of splinter organism to compete with it. I think the word used by clever people is 'dynamic equilibrium'. Tribes are a game theory equilibrium. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Nov 25, 2023 13:25:24 GMT
I don't think we really disagree.
As I said in my reply to TSM, "My point is that all of us occupy an 'alternative reality', a unique, individual understanding of the world that is based not on facts, but on a host of influences upon what we believe."
Given what I do for a living, my view is more than a belief, but it is still influenced - or biased if you wish - by a host of influences. We absolutely need our primitive instincts to continue to survive, that is indisputable. But what separates us from the animal kingdom is our ability to manage and moderate what our instincts are telling us. Dr Steve Peters' 'The Chimp Paradox' is a good starting point if anyone wants to look more closely at this. All the information coming into our brains from our five senses goes first to the 'chimp' part of our brain (limbic system and associated structures). The chimp brain only has two categories for that information, threat or reward. In simple terms, 'is it going to eat me or can I eat it'. Only then does the human brain (pre-frontal cortex) get a look-in on the information. We perform better as humans if we can recognise this is happening and learn to 'respond', rather than simply 'react'. Of course, there are many times when our ability to react is life-saving, but there are as many times when our reaction is misplaced.
None of us can escape our tribal instinct and, as you intimate, neither should we. However, we should be able to moderate and control it, rather than being uncritically driven by it.
If I'm walking down the street and I see an apparent homogeneous group of people all walking towards me, whether they are a group of blacks, or Asians, or teenage lads, or footie fans, I'll cross over to the other side. That's just a sensible response to my tribal instinct telling me there's a potential threat. I'm not making any inference against them other than that I do not share the characteristic that appears to make them homogeneous and they're taking up the whole pavement. I know that in all likelihood they mean me no harm, but erring on the side of caution is sensible.
When it comes to politics, at a subliminal level there is still the instinctive driver of threat or reward. Many people then externalise that, to characterise their political opponents as a threat, and their own as offering reward, however in my view a government should govern for all the people. The model we have here enables one 'tribe', motivated by expectation of reward, to subjugate the other 'tribe' and regard them as a threat. As you said, society is the tribe. I don't believe in there being only one tribe with no outside. Our tribe is the people in these islands. The problem is one of sub-tribes within society and our society hands the keys of power to one or other of the political sub-tribes episodically, to exercise the levers of control over the entire tribe. As a result, in different ways, each sub-tribe uses its higher brain functions to rationalise and seek to justify its perception of threat from the other, consolidating a primitive 'reaction' to events, rather than using those higher brain functions to consider a reasonable response.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:09:25 GMT
So if we become a failed state it will all be the EU's fault even though we are not in it. lol The nonsense some of you Brexit lot spout is truly legendary. No surprise really when you look at this.... www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/people-who-voted-for-brexit-more-likely-to-be-less-intelligent-study-claims/ar-AA1kshgoYes, research clearly demonstrates that on average, Brexit voters were far more thick than Remain voters, and far more easily fooled by any old shite they were told. And the various outpourings on forums such as this only serves to demonstrate the truth of this still further. If you actually believe you're intellectually superior to the majority of British voters who voted to leave the EU then it's no wonder you're just an establishment poodle. After all, I could argue that Remainers suffer from an acute mental disorder and going by some of the posts on this forum I would say this is closer to the truth:
I will also keep in mind that you couldn't actually challenge my post or even address the logic behind it. That's OK, because you can hide behing your deluded persona and alternate reality whilst failing to even grasp the reasons why the EU would support harming the UK and the British people at every given opportunity. This is not to say we don't have enough of our own traitors and degenerate Marxists causing problems.
The fact that you think that I of all people am an establishment poodle shows how detached from reality you actually are. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:10:31 GMT
If he responds to that, cue more detours into the imaginary realm of conspiracy theorising. OK, since you're flaming your thread I won't waste my time on a couple of Blairites. Enjoy your troll thread. A chuckle is the only response necessary to that. lol |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:12:41 GMT
I didnt call you all stupid, racist or uneducated, though there were racists on your side of the argument. You have Nazis and Fascists who support the EU and believe it's going to swing in their favour. You have full blown Jew haters running around vandalising British memorials and screaming for the genocide of ALL Jews in Israel. You have lunatics running around vandalising business', disrupting public services and gluing themselves to the roads.
These are your people, srb. I can understand why you would believe you're intellectually superior (you don't have much else), but it's no different to a Jihadi brainwashed into believing mass-murder will be rewarded in the afterlife.
I posted a link to a survey that proves than on average Brexit voters were less intelligent than Remain ones. You have no evidence to prove otherwise, beyond mumbling some shite about a few extremists, lol |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:14:13 GMT
So if we become a failed state it will all be the EU's fault even though we are not in it. lol The nonsense some of you Brexit lot spout is truly legendary. No surprise really when you look at this.... www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/people-who-voted-for-brexit-more-likely-to-be-less-intelligent-study-claims/ar-AA1kshgoYes, research clearly demonstrates that on average, Brexit voters were far more thick than Remain voters, and far more easily fooled by any old shite they were told. And the various outpourings on forums such as this only serves to demonstrate the truth of this still further. I cannot believe you can present this as an argument,a study claims? You could present studies on all sorts of issues where interested parties could offer some sort of evidence to further their case and at the same time undermine and denigrate the opposition. In fact we both know this happens all the time as with one Anthony Lynton Blair and the case of wmd’s that didn’t exist. To push an argument that says we were more compos mentis than you is scraping the bottom of the barrel,after all why were the riff raff ever allowed the vote weren’t things much better when the elite decided what was best? Why were women ever given the vote they’re stupid creatures aren’t they best left to producing offspring and the kitchen? So based on that study how many elections have been thrown by the intellectually challenged,really isn’t that why treaties were signed without reference to the people because basically they’re too thick. Do you propose that the right to vote should be given only on passing some sort of IQ test,in fact isn’t it the case that our continued membership of what was originally the common market was contaminated by the same percentage of thickos in the first referendum so it’s possible that we should never have needed the second because it’s possible we shouldn’t have been members after the first? Good god Steve is this the best you can come up with? You are the one who is obsessed about the latter, as you bring it up yet again. Is it a fetish of yours or something? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:17:06 GMT
So if we become a failed state it will all be the EU's fault even though we are not in it. lol The nonsense some of you Brexit lot spout is truly legendary. No surprise really when you look at this.... www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/people-who-voted-for-brexit-more-likely-to-be-less-intelligent-study-claims/ar-AA1kshgoYes, research clearly demonstrates that on average, Brexit voters were far more thick than Remain voters, and far more easily fooled by any old shite they were told. And the various outpourings on forums such as this only serves to demonstrate the truth of this still further. I cannot believe you can present this as an argument,a study claims? You could present studies on all sorts of issues where interested parties could offer some sort of evidence to further their case and at the same time undermine and denigrate the opposition. In fact we both know this happens all the time as with one Anthony Lynton Blair and the case of wmd’s that didn’t exist. To push an argument that says we were more compos mentis than you is scraping the bottom of the barrel,after all why were the riff raff ever allowed the vote weren’t things much better when the elite decided what was best? Why were women ever given the vote they’re stupid creatures aren’t they best left to producing offspring and the kitchen? So based on that study how many elections have been thrown by the intellectually challenged,really isn’t that why treaties were signed without reference to the people because basically they’re too thick. Do you propose that the right to vote should be given only on passing some sort of IQ test,in fact isn’t it the case that our continued membership of what was originally the common market was contaminated by the same percentage of thickos in the first referendum so it’s possible that we should never have needed the second because it’s possible we shouldn’t have been members after the first? Good god Steve is this the best you can come up with? Any evidence that actually refuted what I said would be more convincing than that epic rant, except for those who already agree with you. Of which there are many around here of course. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Probably not anytime soon. But economic self interest in combination with the will of the people as time goes by will be decisive in the end. Where those two strands will lead are purely a matter of speculation right now.  You may remember that you remainers "fought" the referendum campaign on the basis that our economy would be trashed if we left the EU. The "Project Fear" campaign by the Remainers predicted all sorts of disasters that never happened. As I said before it was very similar to the Swiss referendum on the EEA which predicted that, if Switzerland didn't join the EEA, their economy would be trashed. Well Switzerland didn't join the EEA and it's now the richest country (per capita) in Europe and has more trade deals than the EU. And if a referendum were held there now (on joining the EU or the EEA) it would be lost by about 90%. The thing is that you don't understand the basic flaw in the EU "project" that is the ticking time bomb that will destroy it - the euro. It's already destroyed the economy of Greece and it's doing the same to Italy - the Italians absolutely hate the EU. The problem with the euro is that, as many economists predicted, you can NOT share a currency between disparate countries without fiscal union. You may remember that we tried to fix Sterling to the Deutschmark some years ago (like the EMS) and we immediately went into severe recession until we abandoned the experiment. The problem for the EU is that they've set up the Eurozone (involving disparate countries) and are now finding that absolutely no member nation wants to hand over their fiscal policy to a central authority (i.e. Germany probably). And the longer this situation goes on the greater the tensions become. We were lucky to get off the "runaway train" at the last stop before piles straight into the buffers. The evidence I posted clearly suggests that on average Brexiteers are less intelligent and thus more easily fooled than Remainers. Simply pretending that is not the case without counter evidence to support you cuts no ice with me. And I am sufficiently clued up about economics, thank you very much. My disagreeing with you does not constitute evidence to the contrary. |
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Post by wapentake on Nov 25, 2023 16:52:56 GMT
I cannot believe you can present this as an argument,a study claims? You could present studies on all sorts of issues where interested parties could offer some sort of evidence to further their case and at the same time undermine and denigrate the opposition. In fact we both know this happens all the time as with one Anthony Lynton Blair and the case of wmd’s that didn’t exist. To push an argument that says we were more compos mentis than you is scraping the bottom of the barrel,after all why were the riff raff ever allowed the vote weren’t things much better when the elite decided what was best? Why were women ever given the vote they’re stupid creatures aren’t they best left to producing offspring and the kitchen? So based on that study how many elections have been thrown by the intellectually challenged,really isn’t that why treaties were signed without reference to the people because basically they’re too thick. Do you propose that the right to vote should be given only on passing some sort of IQ test,in fact isn’t it the case that our continued membership of what was originally the common market was contaminated by the same percentage of thickos in the first referendum so it’s possible that we should never have needed the second because it’s possible we shouldn’t have been members after the first? Good god Steve is this the best you can come up with? You are the one who is obsessed about the latter, as you bring it up yet again. Is it a fetish of yours or something? Obsessed lol,you brought it up and you go on in the next post to say it’s an epic rant if you think that’s a rant you’ve got a vivid imagination. You could've answered the points but never mind,I think you’ll find it’s the losers are obsessed by brexit. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 17:13:23 GMT
You have Nazis and Fascists who support the EU and believe it's going to swing in their favour. You have full blown Jew haters running around vandalising British memorials and screaming for the genocide of ALL Jews in Israel. You have lunatics running around vandalising business', disrupting public services and gluing themselves to the roads.
These are your people, srb. I can understand why you would believe you're intellectually superior (you don't have much else), but it's no different to a Jihadi brainwashed into believing mass-murder will be rewarded in the afterlife.
I posted a link to a survey that proves than on average Brexit voters were less intelligent than Remain ones. You have no evidence to prove otherwise, beyond mumbling some shite about a few extremists, lol There are many many surveys and a host of data that indicates some groups are less intelligent on average than other groups. Sometimes it is difficult to find a reason why this is so. In the case of Brexit it is fairly easy to find quite cogent reasons why this is the case. It does beg the question though that if you have a survey that indicates less intelligence from a specific and well defined group is there a course of action you are advocating as regards that finding or is it just an observation in which case I am not clear why you keep referencing it. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 25, 2023 18:37:23 GMT
It's a bit odd that someone who so clearly doesn't know much about economics is now talking about our "economic self interest" and saying that Brexiteers are "thicker" than remainers. You may remember that you remainers "fought" the referendum campaign on the basis that our economy would be trashed if we left the EU. The "Project Fear" campaign by the Remainers predicted all sorts of disasters that never happened. As I said before it was very similar to the Swiss referendum on the EEA which predicted that, if Switzerland didn't join the EEA, their economy would be trashed. Well Switzerland didn't join the EEA and it's now the richest country (per capita) in Europe and has more trade deals than the EU. And if a referendum were held there now (on joining the EU or the EEA) it would be lost by about 90%. The thing is that you don't understand the basic flaw in the EU "project" that is the ticking time bomb that will destroy it - the euro. It's already destroyed the economy of Greece and it's doing the same to Italy - the Italians absolutely hate the EU. The problem with the euro is that, as many economists predicted, you can NOT share a currency between disparate countries without fiscal union. You may remember that we tried to fix Sterling to the Deutschmark some years ago (like the EMS) and we immediately went into severe recession until we abandoned the experiment. The problem for the EU is that they've set up the Eurozone (involving disparate countries) and are now finding that absolutely no member nation wants to hand over their fiscal policy to a central authority (i.e. Germany probably). And the longer this situation goes on the greater the tensions become. We were lucky to get off the "runaway train" at the last stop before piles straight into the buffers. The evidence I posted Is wrong. Basically you're clutching at straws. Having lost, and lost and lost and lost and lost some more. If you want to win in politics stop insulting those whose votes you need. Classic case, 2010, Gordon Brown, Gillian Duffy. You don't win such people over by calling them bigoted women. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 18:52:37 GMT
Is wrong. Basically you're clutching at straws. Having lost, and lost and lost and lost and lost some more. If you want to win in politics stop insulting those whose votes you need. Classic case, 2010, Gordon Brown, Gillian Duffy. You don't win such people over by calling them bigoted women. I am not touting for votes. If I were I wouldnt call stupid people stupid. Because even stupid people dont like being called stupid. And Brown was an idiot who thought anyone who had an issue with cheap migrant labour being used to keep the working class poor, was a racist for complaining. Just another out of touch middle class liberal with contempt for the working class which is so typical of Labour then and now. But what has that got to do with the price of beans today? Anyway, since I am not out there touting for votes, just like everyone else around here I can say what I really think. Most of you would never say half the shit you come out with either if you were going door to door touting for votes. As for my evidence from a representative survey being wrong, where is your evidence for that? Because my evidence clearly shows that on average Brexit voters were less intelligent and more easily fooled than Remain ones. To simply say this evidence is wrong because you don't like it doesnt cut it. You need counter-evidence to demonstrate how it is wrong, otherwise your argument is based on nothing more than shoving your head in the ground and believing what you want to believe. This may be good enough for you and those who agree with you. But it will not win any argument based upon measured facts. If we all had the same number of votes as our IQ number, Brexit would have been soundly defeated. Fact, lol. So get over it. And by the way, for the purposes of clarification, I am not saying you are all thick anymore than I am saying all Remainers are intelligent. But the averages when measured do tell their own story. |
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