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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2023 19:40:46 GMT
Sorry Kim but you're staying on ignore. Disingenuous and childish, Vinny. Either ignore or don't. If Trump took part in an insurrection or aided, abetted, counselled or procured one his feet would definitely be in a cell now. They are still trying to get the evidence and they need a lot of luck with that. Maybe the left will give someone a bung to give evidence. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 24, 2023 23:53:09 GMT
Trump was technically president at the time and the riot (such as it was) could not sensibly prevent Biden becoming president or using his powers - if that's what the ongoing process resolved as. Calling it an insurrection or attempt to overthrow the US government is quite idiotic - it was a riot. And technically, Trump remained President until the election result was officially signed off. It was that signing off of the election result that Trump and his followers tried to stop. The moment it was signed off Trump called his idiots off. The riot was neither here nor there. passing over the fact that the riot wasn't directed or elicited by trump, the united states was not feasibly going to end up with a different president because a small group of people enter one building armed with banners and selfie sticks. You need to come out of hypnosis. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 1:01:53 GMT
The EU knows it can all fall apart, especially when eurosceptism is going strong. To hurt the UK and the British people sends a message, and I think it would be naive to believe this isn't happening at every opportunity. It isn't in the EU's interest to see the UK succeed. So if we become a failed state it will all be the EU's fault even though we are not in it. lol The nonsense some of you Brexit lot spout is truly legendary. No surprise really when you look at this.... www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/people-who-voted-for-brexit-more-likely-to-be-less-intelligent-study-claims/ar-AA1kshgoYes, research clearly demonstrates that on average, Brexit voters were far more thick than Remain voters, and far more easily fooled by any old shite they were told. And the various outpourings on forums such as this only serves to demonstrate the truth of this still further. If you actually believe you're intellectually superior to the majority of British voters who voted to leave the EU then it's no wonder you're just an establishment poodle. After all, I could argue that Remainers suffer from an acute mental disorder and going by some of the posts on this forum I would say this is closer to the truth:
I will also keep in mind that you couldn't actually challenge my post or even address the logic behind it. That's OK, because you can hide behing your deluded persona and alternate reality whilst failing to even grasp the reasons why the EU would support harming the UK and the British people at every given opportunity. This is not to say we don't have enough of our own traitors and degenerate Marxists causing problems.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 1:18:45 GMT
If he responds to that, cue more detours into the imaginary realm of conspiracy theorising. OK, since you're flaming your thread I won't waste my time on a couple of Blairites. Enjoy your troll thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 1:29:17 GMT
And technically, Trump remained President until the election result was officially signed off. It was that signing off of the election result that Trump and his followers tried to stop. The moment it was signed off Trump called his idiots off. The riot was neither here nor there. passing over the fact that the riot wasn't directed or elicited by trump, the united states was not feasibly going to end up with a different president because a small group of people enter one building armed with banners and selfie sticks. You need to come out of hypnosis. I came to the conclusion long ago that it's the anti-Trump lot who are the fanatical liars. It's no different to the mass hysteria where the Left keep screaming the word "racist" whilst believing it's true if they keep repeating it. That's the alternate reality the Left literally live in, whilst normal folk have to try and bring them back down to the real world.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 1:42:59 GMT
I didnt call you all stupid, racist or uneducated, though there were racists on your side of the argument. You have Nazis and Fascists who support the EU and believe it's going to swing in their favour. You have full blown Jew haters running around vandalising British memorials and screaming for the genocide of ALL Jews in Israel. You have lunatics running around vandalising business', disrupting public services and gluing themselves to the roads.
These are your people, srb. I can understand why you would believe you're intellectually superior (you don't have much else), but it's no different to a Jihadi brainwashed into believing mass-murder will be rewarded in the afterlife.
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 25, 2023 1:53:44 GMT
I don't care what you think, you lost, you're irrelevant. You've been outvoted and have the hubris to call people who weren't outvoted uneducated, stupid, racist. Your arguments are stupid. And, your lot tried to overthrow democracy, and that makes you a bunch of pig ignorant fascist bullies. You were completely unaware of all the downsides of EU membership, regarded it like a sacred cow, rather than a sick pig. Reform was called for and was rejected over and over again. We were watching, you weren't. If you'd paid attention, like Daniel Hannan (a far more educated man than you), you might have realised that something was amiss with this project and that it was a good idea to get out of it. Your lot's refusal to accept democracy (and attempt to overturn a democratic vote) inspired Donald Trump's assault on democracy. The people you have aligned yourself with really are absolutely barking. Morons like this man:  And the New European.  I didnt call you all stupid, racist or uneducated, though there were racists on your side of the argument. What I said was that there were many more less intelligent people on your side than ours, and thus more easily fooled. And I didnt just make that up. I posted a link to actual survey evidence of this fact. I know the Leave vote narrowly won the Brexit vote with the aid of a lot of less intelligent and more easily fooled people, and a few racists, but the democratic outcome was carried out and Brexit delivered, in spite of Remainers making the case - not unreasonably - that we should be given another say once we knew what the actual deal was. Of course Brexiteers decided to run away from democracy on that one in case people didnt vote their way. Now we have Brexit delivered, for better or worse, you just want those who think it is not good for us to shut up now you have got what you want. But democracy and a free country means that those not happy with the status quo are free to try and persuade people that we should go back or change it to something different moving forwards. They are free to make that argument. But it will only happen if they can persuade people. Your fear that they might lays behind your expressed belief that people saying stuff you dont like should just shut up and get over it. But people do not shut up about, or get over, what they oppose. They campaign for what they believe in. Engaging with them and winning the argument, in conjunction with Brexit widely being seen to be a success, would be far more persuasive than just telling people to shut the hell up and accept the status quo for all time just because you like it. And by the way, I never tried to claim that there were not idiots and/or stupid people on the Remain side too. I am sure if you wanted do you could give examples. But I will share again the evidence here measured by a representative survey..... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-voters-stupid-study-voters-b2452491.htmlThis clearly shows that there were many more less intelligent people on your side than on ours. And you wouldnt have won without them. Fact. So get over that one, lol You're still banging on about Brexit, yet have the audacity to try and stifle debate when someone points out your alternate reality of women with penises. Alice Through the Looking Glass. |
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Post by wapentake on Nov 25, 2023 6:48:31 GMT
The EU knows it can all fall apart, especially when eurosceptism is going strong. To hurt the UK and the British people sends a message, and I think it would be naive to believe this isn't happening at every opportunity. It isn't in the EU's interest to see the UK succeed. So if we become a failed state it will all be the EU's fault even though we are not in it. lol The nonsense some of you Brexit lot spout is truly legendary. No surprise really when you look at this.... www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/people-who-voted-for-brexit-more-likely-to-be-less-intelligent-study-claims/ar-AA1kshgoYes, research clearly demonstrates that on average, Brexit voters were far more thick than Remain voters, and far more easily fooled by any old shite they were told. And the various outpourings on forums such as this only serves to demonstrate the truth of this still further. I cannot believe you can present this as an argument,a study claims? You could present studies on all sorts of issues where interested parties could offer some sort of evidence to further their case and at the same time undermine and denigrate the opposition. In fact we both know this happens all the time as with one Anthony Lynton Blair and the case of wmd’s that didn’t exist. To push an argument that says we were more compos mentis than you is scraping the bottom of the barrel,after all why were the riff raff ever allowed the vote weren’t things much better when the elite decided what was best? Why were women ever given the vote they’re stupid creatures aren’t they best left to producing offspring and the kitchen? So based on that study how many elections have been thrown by the intellectually challenged,really isn’t that why treaties were signed without reference to the people because basically they’re too thick. Do you propose that the right to vote should be given only on passing some sort of IQ test,in fact isn’t it the case that our continued membership of what was originally the common market was contaminated by the same percentage of thickos in the first referendum so it’s possible that we should never have needed the second because it’s possible we shouldn’t have been members after the first? Good god Steve is this the best you can come up with? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 25, 2023 7:38:38 GMT
So the Remain camp had the best and brightest minds, the most educated, the most articulate and were people of great intelligence and heft. ...and yet they still couldn't string together an argument that persuaded a majority to back them. Perhaps they were not as bright as they are now claiming?  |
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Post by Steppenwolff on Nov 25, 2023 8:37:09 GMT
There's clearly little point in debate with you srb as you don't understand English. I didn't say the first moon landing WAS faked - I said it was a possibility, which it is. And US election was obviously wide open to fraud because so many of the votes were postal, which are much harder to check and are a known weak point in most elections. Fraud obviously took place but whether it affected the result we don't know - and never will because no one is willing to investigate it. The fact you dismiss both as "conspiracy theories" is just mindless. And anyone who dismisses the obvious fact that the EU is trying to get their own back on the UK for leaving the EU is obviously a brick short of a load. In your "alternate reality" everybody plays by the rules apparently. In actual real life it doesn't work like that. I would have to disagree with your last paragraph, IMO the EU putting its own interests first is a perfectly natural thing to do, it is not a case of 'trying to get its own back'. I see no benefit for the EU wasting its time "trying to get its own back" on the UK for leaving, it has far more important things to do. As I said you have to make a distinction between the EU Commission and the EU Council. The EU Council (representatives of the individual member states) have different interests from the EU Commission. The various members of the Council will be trying to get the best trade deal with the UK that they can (which may vary from nation to nation - which is why the trade negotiation is done by the Commission). The EU Commission, however, has other additional interests. In particular it can't make the process off leaving the EU too easy. There has to be a price to pay to "discourage other countries from leaving" and that price may conflict to some extent with the interests of its own member states. For example introducing unnecessary friction in trade between the UK and the EU benefits no one - all it does is make difficulties for the UK and difficulties for the various EU member nations who are trading with us. Yet this is exactly what the EU Commission has done. Paper documentation has to be carried by all our lorries and it all has to be in the languages of every country that is on their route - when this type of thing is normally done electronically now and precedes the lorry to speed up processing. But under the EU the documentation is checked when it's handed over by the lorry driver - and if anything is slightly wrong the lorry is turned back. One example was when the papers were numbered sequentially for each language when the EU require it to be sequentially numbered overall. It's basically a deliberate attempt to cause problems. Another example is the fact that 25% of the EU's customs checks are carried out on trade between England and NI when it accounts for less than 2% of overall traffic. It's all entirely deliberate and it's just designed to cause trouble. It's that some of you guys are so ignorant about the EU and what's been going on. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 25, 2023 9:17:58 GMT
Your arguments are prejudiced in the extreme and very wrong. UK is a successful country with a growing economy. EU members including Germany have been in recession recently. We're not going back, get over it. Probably not anytime soon. But economic self interest in combination with the will of the people as time goes by will be decisive in the end. Where those two strands will lead are purely a matter of speculation right now. It's a bit odd that someone who so clearly doesn't know much about economics is now talking about our "economic self interest" and saying that Brexiteers are "thicker" than remainers.  You may remember that you remainers "fought" the referendum campaign on the basis that our economy would be trashed if we left the EU. The "Project Fear" campaign by the Remainers predicted all sorts of disasters that never happened. As I said before it was very similar to the Swiss referendum on the EEA which predicted that, if Switzerland didn't join the EEA, their economy would be trashed. Well Switzerland didn't join the EEA and it's now the richest country (per capita) in Europe and has more trade deals than the EU. And if a referendum were held there now (on joining the EU or the EEA) it would be lost by about 90%. The thing is that you don't understand the basic flaw in the EU "project" that is the ticking time bomb that will destroy it - the euro. It's already destroyed the economy of Greece and it's doing the same to Italy - the Italians absolutely hate the EU. The problem with the euro is that, as many economists predicted, you can NOT share a currency between disparate countries without fiscal union. You may remember that we tried to fix Sterling to the Deutschmark some years ago (like the EMS) and we immediately went into severe recession until we abandoned the experiment. The problem for the EU is that they've set up the Eurozone (involving disparate countries) and are now finding that absolutely no member nation wants to hand over their fiscal policy to a central authority (i.e. Germany probably). And the longer this situation goes on the greater the tensions become. We were lucky to get off the "runaway train" at the last stop before piles straight into the buffers. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Nov 25, 2023 10:18:59 GMT
First, a reminder to contributors:
Orac commented that, "I would add to this that i think a potentially interesting discussion has been avoided by the OP
By making things partisan, SRB is leading the conversation away from discussing the observation that society is dramatically fracturing into distinct world views."
I would agree that this is the sort of potentially interesting discussion that should feature in the Mind Zone. We should be able to discuss it dispassionately and without partisanship, but sadly that seems to be a pipe dream, despite Tinc's additional rules.
In my view, the distinct world views Orac talks about are as old as humanity. Human history is an eternal history of the conflict between oppressors and the oppressed, and 'world views' are forged by which side one is on. In pre-history it was, 'my tribe is better than your tribe'. Later, it was emperors and despots against those they subjugated. Then it was landowners and aristocracy against the peasantry. Post-industrial revolution it was factory owners versus workers. Then it was dictators against the World and all along, deep down, it has always been 'my tribe is better than your tribe'.
In my teaching, I often reference Epictetus, 1st Century Greek philosopher, who said, "Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views they take of them". Nothing has changed in that regard.
What has changed, that has accelerated divisions and thrown them into sharp relief, is access to knowledge. Prior to the internet age, knowledge was collated, curated and verified and the sources of that knowledge could be authenticated. Since the rise of social media, knowledge is universally accessible but it is no longer collated, curated and verifiable.
And given that, deep down, we are still driven by the same primitive instincts that gave us 'my tribe is better than your tribe' in the first place, we latch on to information that reinforces our own 'alternate reality', and dismiss anything that does not.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 25, 2023 10:37:31 GMT
By making things partisan, SRB is leading the conversation away from discussing the observation that society is dramatically fracturing into distinct world views. Oh, I don't know - I'd say that he's presented himself as a prime example of one who believes in an alternate reality. Ironic, but instructional nonetheless. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 25, 2023 10:58:12 GMT
I didnt call you all stupid, racist or uneducated, though there were racists on your side of the argument. You have Nazis and Fascists who support the EU and believe it's going to swing in their favour. You have full blown Jew haters running around vandalising British memorials and screaming for the genocide of ALL Jews in Israel. You have lunatics running around vandalising business', disrupting public services and gluing themselves to the roads.
These are your people, srb. I can understand why you would believe you're intellectually superior (you don't have much else), but it's no different to a Jihadi brainwashed into believing mass-murder will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Well said. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 25, 2023 11:03:38 GMT
Probably not anytime soon. But economic self interest in combination with the will of the people as time goes by will be decisive in the end. Where those two strands will lead are purely a matter of speculation right now. It's a bit odd that someone who so clearly doesn't know much about economics is now talking about our "economic self interest" and saying that Brexiteers are "thicker" than remainers. You may remember that you remainers "fought" the referendum campaign on the basis that our economy would be trashed if we left the EU. The "Project Fear" campaign by the Remainers predicted all sorts of disasters that never happened. As I said before it was very similar to the Swiss referendum on the EEA which predicted that, if Switzerland didn't join the EEA, their economy would be trashed. Well Switzerland didn't join the EEA and it's now the richest country (per capita) in Europe and has more trade deals than the EU. And if a referendum were held there now (on joining the EU or the EEA) it would be lost by about 90%. The thing is that you don't understand the basic flaw in the EU "project" that is the ticking time bomb that will destroy it - the euro. It's already destroyed the economy of Greece and it's doing the same to Italy - the Italians absolutely hate the EU. The problem with the euro is that, as many economists predicted, you can NOT share a currency between disparate countries without fiscal union. You may remember that we tried to fix Sterling to the Deutschmark some years ago (like the EMS) and we immediately went into severe recession until we abandoned the experiment. The problem for the EU is that they've set up the Eurozone (involving disparate countries) and are now finding that absolutely no member nation wants to hand over their fiscal policy to a central authority (i.e. Germany probably). And the longer this situation goes on the greater the tensions become. We were lucky to get off the "runaway train" at the last stop before piles straight into the buffers. Absolutely right. Essentially, for the Euro to work, the EU would need to become a country, with all the democratic systems the people of a country need in order to hold their government to account. It would need to be turned into a country by democratic vote and democratic government of it established, meaning an end of the unelected Commission and the start of a cabinet of MEPs plus a Prime Minister / President from the biggest elected party. They do not currently have the democratic institutions to do this. They have the Commission. It's not a good system. |
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