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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 8:08:13 GMT
let me translate this latest gibber of yours. You are telling me because of austerity , Corbyn took loads votes as his hard left vision was lapped up by a flagging electorate , but not in 2019? You do realise Corbyn led both elections dont you see 2? Are you saying Corbyn went right wing in 2019?  As well as Corbyn did in 2017 it still resulted in Labour polishing the opposition benches, as usual. It did. Who has argued otherwise? All the parties were saying austerity was over a year before the 2019 general election. Corbyn was especially against it , both may and Johnson turned on the spending taps , for example may increased spending on the nhs after years of decline under Cameron and Osbourne so what are you gibbering about now? If austerity is a weapon Corbyn failed to take advantage of because it had ended in 2019 , then why is starmer saying he won't turn on the spending taps, and is flip flopping as usual on his intent to implement more austerity despite being urged not to by union officials ? you do talk some utter rubbish. Austerity Is Labour’s Choice
But this message has yet to reach Sir Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves, who seem intent upon resurrecting an austerity politics pronounced dead by none other than Boris Johnson.
But the new Labour leadership can’t even be accused of blowing wherever the wind takes them. Instead, they seem intent on pushing conservative economic policies even when the general public supports much more radical ones.
tribunemag.co.uk/2023/08/austerity-is-labours-choice
So to sum up your latest lame argument about Corbyn in 2019 ( if I understand your gibberish correct) Corbyn lost the weapon of attacking the hated tory austerity hence why he lost the election , but keir starmer is going to implement austerity and win the next election ? the mind boggles. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 8:16:01 GMT
Steve , I dont think the election will turn out as the polls suggest , and I fully expect turnout to be higher , and labour to drop ten points from where they are currently. However , regarding Brexit , which both you and I voted remain in 2016 , how do you think people are going to react if starmer gets something like 9 million three hundred thousand votes , splitting hairs here of course ,but wins a landslide on the lowest electoral turnout in uk history , and then goes onto start renegotiating with Europe or whatever other shite blairites are now describing BRINO? You talk to people , you are a politics geek , and do the rounds on these forums , as I do , and do you think 17 half million brexiters are going to sit back quietly and accept that with Farage and others screaming about starmers every move in the background? I think its a recipe for chaos and total disaster. But re the Brexiteers. There are fewer of them now than there were in 2016. Heavily concentrated as they were in the older age groups, far more Brexit supporters than Remainers have simply died in the 8 years since. And polling evidence lately has been tending to show that some of those who remain have changed their minds. So the tide of opinion is running against Brexit in the long run and is unlikely to reverse unless Brexit comes to be recognised as a roaring success. you might be right Steve , but im not sure support for Brexit has dropped that much , and even then , those who may have stopped support for Brexit can also see how embarrassing it will be for England especially to turn around and beg the EU to tie itself back into eu rules and institutions. Doesnt matter how starmer does it , or try to hide it , I have said for a long time now ,your country made its bed in 2016 . Any return in any way shape or form will be seen as a total capitulation , and England/UK will look extremely weak , and prove to the world it cannot survive without holding onto mother Brussels apron strings. The uk will be a laughing stock. You need to detach your personal thinking and wishes from the wider situation and realpolitik. |
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Post by sheepy on Jan 29, 2024 8:19:50 GMT
Blimey Thomas, you Scottish nationalists are not taking victory very well.
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 8:21:22 GMT
Blimey Thomas, you Scottish nationalists are not taking victory very well. They make a desert , and call it peace........... |
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Post by sheepy on Jan 29, 2024 8:30:03 GMT
I call it, listening to what you have said and what you wanted from politics, which you will be about to receive. Then it will be all about proving you are correct and that what you wanted will make things right with the Scots.
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Post by sheepy on Jan 29, 2024 9:43:55 GMT
If I could offer you a bit of advice if I was Mr Salmond I would get direct democracy done quickly because you can be sure once back in the EU there will be an awful lot of people out to feck you up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 14:55:57 GMT
But re the Brexiteers. There are fewer of them now than there were in 2016. Heavily concentrated as they were in the older age groups, far more Brexit supporters than Remainers have simply died in the 8 years since. And polling evidence lately has been tending to show that some of those who remain have changed their minds. So the tide of opinion is running against Brexit in the long run and is unlikely to reverse unless Brexit comes to be recognised as a roaring success. you might be right Steve , but im not sure support for Brexit has dropped that much , and even then , those who may have stopped support for Brexit can also see how embarrassing it will be for England especially to turn around and beg the EU to tie itself back into eu rules and institutions. Doesnt matter how starmer does it , or try to hide it , I have said for a long time now ,your country made its bed in 2016 . Any return in any way shape or form will be seen as a total capitulation , and England/UK will look extremely weak , and prove to the world it cannot survive without holding onto mother Brussels apron strings. The uk will be a laughing stock.
You need to detach your personal thinking and wishes from the wider situation and realpolitik. I understand the realpolitik. The EU would like us back because it serves their interests for Brexit to be seen as a failure. And they would like frictionless trade with us as much as we would like it with them. Many in the Establishment believe Brexit was a mistake and are itching to reverse the worst aspects of it as they see it. Such people run most of the political parties except for the Tories and Reform. Many of them are proven liars and will not be honest with us before being elected unless it serves their purposes to be so. They are aware that it was mostly older people who voted for Brexit and mostly younger ones who didnt' which means time is on their side. And there is evidence that minds are starting to change. In due course when a large swathe of Brexiteers have died of old age, the aim will be to negotiate our return. There will be little sense of shame for those who never supported Brexit in the first place. It was not their doing, and they will feel more ashamed of what they are likely to view as the idiots who voted for Brexit. But this is at least a decade away, probably two. In the meantime, Brino will be the more immediate aim but dont expect them to be honest about that before being elected. Public opinion in any even semi-democratic country like ours is itself part of Realpolitik, and if it changes so do the political possibilities, feelings and options. And the ultimate realpolitik is that time and demographics are not on the side of Brexit, and the only possibility of that markedly changing is for many of those who voted Remain to see Brexit as such an obvious success that they are the ones who change their mind. There is scant evidence of such a trend so far though. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:55:33 GMT
you might be right Steve , but im not sure support for Brexit has dropped that much , and even then , those who may have stopped support for Brexit can also see how embarrassing it will be for England especially to turn around and beg the EU to tie itself back into eu rules and institutions. Doesnt matter how starmer does it , or try to hide it , I have said for a long time now ,your country made its bed in 2016 . Any return in any way shape or form will be seen as a total capitulation , and England/UK will look extremely weak , and prove to the world it cannot survive without holding onto mother Brussels apron strings. The uk will be a laughing stock.
You need to detach your personal thinking and wishes from the wider situation and realpolitik. I understand the realpolitik. The EU would like us back because it serves their interests for Brexit to be seen as a failure. And they would like frictionless trade with us as much as we would like it with them. Many in the Establishment believe Brexit was a mistake and are itching to reverse the worst aspects of it as they see it. Such people run most of the political parties except for the Tories and Reform. Many of them are proven liars and will not be honest with us before being elected unless it serves their purposes to be so. They are aware that it was mostly older people who voted for Brexit and mostly younger ones who didnt' which means time is on their side. And there is evidence that minds are starting to change. In due course when a large swathe of Brexiteers have died of old age, the aim will be to negotiate our return. There will be little sense of shame for those who never supported Brexit in the first place. It was not their doing, and they will feel more ashamed of what they are likely to view as the idiots who voted for Brexit. But this is at least a decade away, probably two. In the meantime, Brino will be the more immediate aim but dont expect them to be honest about that before being elected. Public opinion in any even semi-democratic country like ours is itself part of Realpolitik, and if it changes so do the political possibilities, feelings and options. And the ultimate realpolitik is that time and demographics are not on the side of Brexit, and the only possibility of that markedly changing is for many of those who voted Remain to see Brexit as such an obvious success that they are the ones who change their mind. There is scant evidence of such a trend so far though. sure Steve im aware of all that. My point was the repetitional damage England/uk would suffer crawling back would be unbearable in my opinion. You would have an even weaker negotiating hand than you do now. You are announcing to the world , a mere short space of time after Brexit , that you are unable to cope/survive without the EU , and as such , extremely weak. Im not sure how you get over that , and you dont appear to address this in your post. The idea the world , especially your countries many enemies , aren't going to call England weak because some young folk didnt support Brexit is irrelevant. You will be seen as a small insignificant little north west region of brussellls that couldnt fly the nest in 2016 because you were too weak to do so. Im not sure how you address that repetitional damage , but saying it wasn't us younger ones guv honest does nothing to bolster a failing and weak reputation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 17:04:00 GMT
The only reason the ScotNats are opposed to Labour is because Labour is set to defeat the ScotNats in Scotland. The fact that the last Labour government balkanised the UK is now seen as a problem by Labour's power base?
Labour Giveth and Labour Taketh Away. Yeah, fat chance, but it's enough to make the ScotNats panic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 20:47:19 GMT
I understand the realpolitik. The EU would like us back because it serves their interests for Brexit to be seen as a failure. And they would like frictionless trade with us as much as we would like it with them. Many in the Establishment believe Brexit was a mistake and are itching to reverse the worst aspects of it as they see it. Such people run most of the political parties except for the Tories and Reform. Many of them are proven liars and will not be honest with us before being elected unless it serves their purposes to be so. They are aware that it was mostly older people who voted for Brexit and mostly younger ones who didnt' which means time is on their side. And there is evidence that minds are starting to change. In due course when a large swathe of Brexiteers have died of old age, the aim will be to negotiate our return. There will be little sense of shame for those who never supported Brexit in the first place. It was not their doing, and they will feel more ashamed of what they are likely to view as the idiots who voted for Brexit. But this is at least a decade away, probably two. In the meantime, Brino will be the more immediate aim but dont expect them to be honest about that before being elected. Public opinion in any even semi-democratic country like ours is itself part of Realpolitik, and if it changes so do the political possibilities, feelings and options. And the ultimate realpolitik is that time and demographics are not on the side of Brexit, and the only possibility of that markedly changing is for many of those who voted Remain to see Brexit as such an obvious success that they are the ones who change their mind. There is scant evidence of such a trend so far though. sure Steve im aware of all that. My point was the repetitional damage England/uk would suffer crawling back would be unbearable in my opinion. You would have an even weaker negotiating hand than you do now. You are announcing to the world , a mere short space of time after Brexit , that you are unable to cope/survive without the EU , and as such , extremely weak. Im not sure how you get over that , and you dont appear to address this in your post. The idea the world , especially your countries many enemies , aren't going to call England weak because some young folk didnt support Brexit is irrelevant. You will be seen as a small insignificant little north west region of brussellls that couldnt fly the nest in 2016 because you were too weak to do so. Im not sure how you address that repetitional damage , but saying it wasn't us younger ones guv honest does nothing to bolster a failing and weak reputation. How you think of Brexit versus remain and how others in the world see it depends on their perspective. Some might indeed see it as crawling back, unable to survive alone. Others would see it as us coming to our senses after two or three decades of madness. Most, not even ourselves, can not realistically kid ourselves that we are a first rate power anymore. Some might say that we would have more heft as a prominent member of something greater than we would alone. Indeed, as a lone second rate power we probably have less influence outside the EU than we had inside. And I would guess that most young people not hung up on the days of lost glories probably understand this. Our habit of attaching a couple of thousand troops or a couple of dozen aircraft to whatever military adventure the USA comes up with next in order to pretend we are still important truly is rather ridiculous and indeed at times shameful. I dont think I have ever cringed so much at a political spectacle than I did at the sight of Blairs craven toadying to the USA. It was as if we were a US puppet state. And one thing that the opponents of Brexit will find far more shameful than what they regard as the sensible option of re-joining is trying and failing to prosper whilst going it alone. Standing alone and shouting from the sidelines pretending to count whilst the great powers ignore us would be far more demeaning than being a major part of something greater. Indeed for those who think it the sensible thing to do - both at home and abroad - rejoining would not be thought of as shameful at all, but a sensible reversal at last of something regarded as shamefully stupid. So how rejoining would be interpreted would entirely depend upon perspective. It is not a given that rejoining would diminish us in the eyes of the world. It might in some. But it wouldnt in others. It would entirely depend upon whether they thought Brexit was sensible in the first place or not. For those who thought it wasnt sensible, displaying our stupidity in their eyes by leaving would have been seen as the shameful thing, with rejoining a return to intelligent politics and economics. Like I say, it depemds on your perspective. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2024 8:19:25 GMT
sure Steve im aware of all that. My point was the repetitional damage England/uk would suffer crawling back would be unbearable in my opinion. You would have an even weaker negotiating hand than you do now. You are announcing to the world , a mere short space of time after Brexit , that you are unable to cope/survive without the EU , and as such , extremely weak. Im not sure how you get over that , and you dont appear to address this in your post. The idea the world , especially your countries many enemies , aren't going to call England weak because some young folk didnt support Brexit is irrelevant. You will be seen as a small insignificant little north west region of brussellls that couldnt fly the nest in 2016 because you were too weak to do so. Im not sure how you address that repetitional damage , but saying it wasn't us younger ones guv honest does nothing to bolster a failing and weak reputation. How you think of Brexit versus remain and how others in the world see it depends on their perspective. I agree. The same though applies to you and your wishful thinking. The problem you and those like you have Steve is you think all of the uk ills are due to Brexit , and will miraculously heal by rejoining ( lets use rejoin , and not get hung up on starmers BRINO). I say the vast majority of issues plaguing the uk were already there , and were part of the long terms decline of the uk , and the Brexit was merely a symptom of that decline , not the cause of it. The massive damage to the perception of the uk as a regional power , and of course the loss of reputation , by begging to go back to the EU in my opinion would be enormous. It won't just be Farage screaming about the damage. Putin in Russia will be mocking the uk , the europeans themselves will then know who master and servant is , and the uk ability to demand concessions regarding opt outs will be non existent. You will have to sit at the back of the EU class as other members snigger at you , frightened to put a foot out of line in case the EU throw you back out. you may get access to the single market , and eu trade deals around the globe , but you will pay a heavy price for the privilege. You can't undo the damage by rejoining the EU. You made a statement to the world , wether you personally agreed with it or not in 2016 , the majority voted out , and if you back down now , you will be seen as cowardly and completely spineless. From the football terraces , to the corridors of power worldwide , you will be mocked relentlessly. That's an inescapable fact. |
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Post by sheepy on Jan 30, 2024 8:34:22 GMT
How you think of Brexit versus remain and how others in the world see it depends on their perspective. I agree. The same though applies to you and your wishful thinking. The problem you and those like you have Steve is you think all of the uk ills are due to Brexit , and will miraculously heal by rejoining ( lets use rejoin , and not get hung up on starmers BRINO). I say the vast majority of issues plaguing the uk were already there , and were part of the long terms decline of the uk , and the Brexit was merely a symptom of that decline , not the cause of it. The massive damage to the perception of the uk as a regional power , and of course the loss of reputation , by begging to go back to the EU in my opinion would be enormous. It won't just be Farage screaming about the damage. Putin in Russia will be mocking the uk , the europeans themselves will then know who master and servant is , and the uk ability to demand concessions regarding opt outs will be non existent. You will have to sit at the back of the EU class as other members snigger at you , frightened to put a foot out of line in case the EU throw you back out. you may get access to the single market , and eu trade deals around the globe , but you will pay a heavy price for the privilege. You can't undo the damage by rejoining the EU. You made a statement to the world , wether you personally agreed with it or not in 2016 , the majority voted out , and if you back down now , you will be seen as cowardly and completely spineless. From the football terraces , to the corridors of power worldwide , you will be mocked relentlessly. That's an inescapable fact. While if you step out of line you will be banned as a party. Those is the rules, well fast becoming the rules. While also if you think you can veto the EU masters you will have your vote removed. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2024 8:36:21 GMT
I agree. The same though applies to you and your wishful thinking. The problem you and those like you have Steve is you think all of the uk ills are due to Brexit , and will miraculously heal by rejoining ( lets use rejoin , and not get hung up on starmers BRINO). I say the vast majority of issues plaguing the uk were already there , and were part of the long terms decline of the uk , and the Brexit was merely a symptom of that decline , not the cause of it. The massive damage to the perception of the uk as a regional power , and of course the loss of reputation , by begging to go back to the EU in my opinion would be enormous. It won't just be Farage screaming about the damage. Putin in Russia will be mocking the uk , the europeans themselves will then know who master and servant is , and the uk ability to demand concessions regarding opt outs will be non existent. You will have to sit at the back of the EU class as other members snigger at you , frightened to put a foot out of line in case the EU throw you back out. you may get access to the single market , and eu trade deals around the globe , but you will pay a heavy price for the privilege. You can't undo the damage by rejoining the EU. You made a statement to the world , wether you personally agreed with it or not in 2016 , the majority voted out , and if you back down now , you will be seen as cowardly and completely spineless. From the football terraces , to the corridors of power worldwide , you will be mocked relentlessly. That's an inescapable fact. While if you step out of line you will be banned as a party. Those is the rules, well fast becoming the rules. Nothing new there sheepy. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 30, 2024 9:42:01 GMT
As well as Corbyn did in 2017 it still resulted in Labour polishing the opposition benches, as usual. It did. Who has argued otherwise? All the parties were saying austerity was over a year before the 2019 general election. Corbyn was especially against it , both may and Johnson turned on the spending taps , for example may increased spending on the nhs after years of decline under Cameron and Osbourne so what are you gibbering about now? If austerity is a weapon Corbyn failed to take advantage of because it had ended in 2019 , then why is starmer saying he won't turn on the spending taps, and is flip flopping as usual on his intent to implement more austerity despite being urged not to by union officials ? you do talk some utter rubbish. Austerity Is Labour’s Choice
But this message has yet to reach Sir Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves, who seem intent upon resurrecting an austerity politics pronounced dead by none other than Boris Johnson.
But the new Labour leadership can’t even be accused of blowing wherever the wind takes them. Instead, they seem intent on pushing conservative economic policies even when the general public supports much more radical ones.
tribunemag.co.uk/2023/08/austerity-is-labours-choice
So to sum up your latest lame argument about Corbyn in 2019 ( if I understand your gibberish correct) Corbyn lost the weapon of attacking the hated tory austerity hence why he lost the election , but keir starmer is going to implement austerity and win the next election ? the mind boggles. Exactly, i.e. austerity was no longer a minus in the minds of the electorate. Starmer is aware that that the economy is in a mess. He cannot decide on when or by how much he can "turn the taps on" until he and his economists have seen the books. That is not 'flip flopping' it is just commonsense. But your need to whinge before you are hurt is just an example of your deeply held bias. "who seem intent" is just speculation. Your 'mag' is full of biased opinions and is responsible for intentionally misleading people. No one will be aware of Starmer's intentions until Starmer spells them out. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2024 12:56:24 GMT
How you think of Brexit versus remain and how others in the world see it depends on their perspective. I agree. The same though applies to you and your wishful thinking. The problem you and those like you have Steve is you think all of the uk ills are due to Brexit , and will miraculously heal by rejoining ( lets use rejoin , and not get hung up on starmers BRINO). I say the vast majority of issues plaguing the uk were already there , and were part of the long terms decline of the uk , and the Brexit was merely a symptom of that decline , not the cause of it. The massive damage to the perception of the uk as a regional power , and of course the loss of reputation , by begging to go back to the EU in my opinion would be enormous. It won't just be Farage screaming about the damage. Putin in Russia will be mocking the uk , the europeans themselves will then know who master and servant is , and the uk ability to demand concessions regarding opt outs will be non existent. You will have to sit at the back of the EU class as other members snigger at you , frightened to put a foot out of line in case the EU throw you back out. you may get access to the single market , and eu trade deals around the globe , but you will pay a heavy price for the privilege. You can't undo the damage by rejoining the EU. You made a statement to the world , wether you personally agreed with it or not in 2016 , the majority voted out , and if you back down now , you will be seen as cowardly and completely spineless. From the football terraces , to the corridors of power worldwide , you will be mocked relentlessly. That's an inescapable fact. Actually you are wrong on two counts. Firstly I do not think that all of the UK's ills are down to Brexit. Many of them predate it and have been developing for decades, in many ways long term damage caused by the thatcherite consensus, in which both main parties have been complicit. Brexit has just made some of these problems even worse is all. Reversing it alone will not solve them. And secondly you are mistaking what I think will happen with what I want to happen. I would like Brexit to be a roaring success with all of us getting better off as a result. That is what I want to happen. But it is not what I think will happen. Time will tell though. If it becomes glaringly obvious over time that Brexit is proving to be a roaring success, I myself will become one of many former Remain voters who will change my mind. The evidence for this happening is far from conclusive yet, however, to say the least. |
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