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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 15, 2023 21:21:53 GMT
Sid, what is interesting is that reform are only 8 points behind the Tories, I suspect that Reform are going to give us an outstanding Labour victory, it is very difficult to see how the current problems are going to get resolved. i presume you mean in the same way the Gang Of Four took the centre left vote from Foot’s Militant Tendency infected Labour party and gifted piwer to Thatcher …?
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Post by see2 on Nov 15, 2023 21:33:29 GMT
If Farage wanted to play dirty guts, and only campaigned in Labour constituencies, Labour would be wiped out. You need to have a good imagination to keep posting as a Righty.
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Post by om15 on Nov 15, 2023 21:49:08 GMT
Not really, in 1978 I had my first civilian job, as a closed shop I was forced to be a member of the AUEW and be told to go on strike regularly. The shop stewards ( mainly Liverpudlians and Glaswegians) were conducting class war against the Company we worked for, they damaged the management and cost me wages, all for no reason other than their own agenda. Mrs Thatcher came along, binned all that rubbish, the Company did well, (still is doing well) and I earned more money for my family. That was the reality.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 15, 2023 22:08:25 GMT
You should have been around before she arrived if you wanted to see what a mess the economy was, we were labelled "the sick man of Europe" due to workshy union workers, insipid management and craven Labour politicians. I was around then, and I heard Thatcher's LIES about the Unions and nationalisation being to blame for the countries problems. This country's economy never recovered from the "largest trading deficit ever recorded" (to that date), that was inherited by Labour in 1964. In fact the economy never perked up until North Sea Oil began to come ashore in the late 1970s. Thatcher ended up selling off our oil along with the rest of the family silver. In the second half of the 1970s the TUC agreed with the government to hold pay claims at 5%. It was pissed off workers that refused to take the 5% limit starting with the lowest paid workers protesting. France and Germany were ploughing ahead with Nationalised High Speed Railways While British Rail was being seriously underfunded. It seems that you fell for the propaganda, while missing the reality. Just checking - you are aware that Labour were in power for most of the 1960's &70's?
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Post by see2 on Nov 16, 2023 10:57:03 GMT
Not really, in 1978 I had my first civilian job, as a closed shop I was forced to be a member of the AUEW and be told to go on strike regularly. The shop stewards ( mainly Liverpudlians and Glaswegians) were conducting class war against the Company we worked for, they damaged the management and cost me wages, all for no reason other than their own agenda. Mrs Thatcher came along, binned all that rubbish, the Company did well, (still is doing well) and I earned more money for my family. That was the reality. I recognise that agenda, It had been building up for some years as loud mouthed trouble makers on the shop floor took advantage of the pissed off attitudes of so many British workers who were fed up of being financially abused and of seeing profits being fed to the investors at the expense of investment into industry and job creation. My problem with that period is that all too often the truth about the lack of investment into into job creation along with decades of economic mismanagement of the economy is always blamed on the workforce. Thatcher came along with her callous corner shop ideology. You were one of the fortunate ones, there were up to 4 million people without a job and that meant millions of workers/families and their children suffered relative poverty. They paid the penalty and carried the burden of the failure by governments, the Captains of Industry and the people with the real power i.e. the extremely rich and powerful who just carried on buying the latest BMW or such like. Yes it was the workers who got the blame. One right-winger insinuated that people should get on their bike and go and find work, that's part of arrogantly dishonest political propaganda that was floating about. Thousands of businesses were closing down but if you don't have a job, that your fault.
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 11:10:31 GMT
Not really, in 1978 I had my first civilian job, as a closed shop I was forced to be a member of the AUEW and be told to go on strike regularly. The shop stewards ( mainly Liverpudlians and Glaswegians) were conducting class war against the Company we worked for, they damaged the management and cost me wages, all for no reason other than their own agenda. Mrs Thatcher came along, binned all that rubbish, the Company did well, (still is doing well) and I earned more money for my family. That was the reality. I recognise that agenda, It had been building up for some years as loud mouthed trouble makers on the shop floor took advantage of the pissed off attitudes of so many British workers who were fed up of being financially abused and of seeing profits being fed to the investors at the expense of investment into industry and job creation. This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job.
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Post by see2 on Nov 16, 2023 11:12:21 GMT
I was around then, and I heard Thatcher's LIES about the Unions and nationalisation being to blame for the countries problems. This country's economy never recovered from the "largest trading deficit ever recorded" (to that date), that was inherited by Labour in 1964. In fact the economy never perked up until North Sea Oil began to come ashore in the late 1970s. Thatcher ended up selling off our oil along with the rest of the family silver. In the second half of the 1970s the TUC agreed with the government to hold pay claims at 5%. It was pissed off workers that refused to take the 5% limit starting with the lowest paid workers protesting. France and Germany were ploughing ahead with Nationalised High Speed Railways While British Rail was being seriously underfunded. It seems that you fell for the propaganda, while missing the reality. Just checking - you are aware that Labour were in power for most of the 1960's &70's? Yes they inherited a bust economy in 1964. (and in 1974) I guess you remember Wilson's 'red hot heat of industry' in the late 1960s as he offered financial help to industry, that failed almost certainly because industrialists lacked the brains to see how best to take advantage of the opportunity. Certainly not the fault of the workers even though restlessness amongst workers was obviously on the increase at the time.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 11:29:35 GMT
This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job. Is the right answer. I'm an investor and I expect to see a return on my investment. That's the quid pro quo. And if I don't get a return then I don't invest and the workforce will find themselves out of a job.
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Post by see2 on Nov 16, 2023 11:41:00 GMT
I recognise that agenda, It had been building up for some years as loud mouthed trouble makers on the shop floor took advantage of the pissed off attitudes of so many British workers who were fed up of being financially abused and of seeing profits being fed to the investors at the expense of investment into industry and job creation. This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job. NO, its not resentment, its common sense. If profits are paid out to investors at the expense of reinvestment (and maintenance of machinery which I personally witnessed) then profits and job numbers fall. Of course, but you really do not need to explain the obvious to me. Skilled workers are good at what they do and they are good for the company. They may well have their own investments in some way somewhere, but they are not business people. Trying to compare management with skilled workers is a case of apples and oranges. I did around 30 years in engineering (before retraining into a professional position) and I can say with absolute honesty that I have argued on the shop floor that 'if all the company you work for can pay you is two bowls of rice a day well that's it. But if the company is making big profits and is giving all of it to the CEO and his top people then there is cause for trouble. Ditto, if the company is paying all its profits to its investors there is cause for worry.
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 11:45:37 GMT
This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job. NO, its not resentment, its common sense. If profits are paid out to investors at the expense of reinvestment (and maintenance of machinery which I personally witnessed) then profits and job numbers fall. If investors are not paid adequately, who is going to supply the machinery and plant..at all? The workers?
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Post by see2 on Nov 16, 2023 11:50:47 GMT
This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job. Is the right answer. I'm an investor and I expect to see a return on my investment. Your position is not the quid pro quo. And if I don't get a return then I don't invest and the workforce will find themselves out of a job. Your position is not in dispute. If you had followed the thread you would have known I was referring to a particular period in history, i.e. the period when Wilson offered financial help to industry, there was a complaint at that time that businesses were paying out all their profits to investors at the expense of reinvestment and maintenance of machinery.
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Post by see2 on Nov 16, 2023 11:52:40 GMT
NO, its not resentment, its common sense. If profits are paid out to investors at the expense of reinvestment (and maintenance of machinery which I personally witnessed) then profits and job numbers fall. If investors are not paid adequately, who is going to supply the machinery and plant..at all? The workers? See my reply to SM. The point was about the state of industry at one particular point in history.
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 11:56:16 GMT
If investors are not paid adequately, who is going to supply the machinery and plant..at all? The workers? See my reply to SM. The point was about the state of industry at one particular point in history. Your reply to SM doesn't answer the question.
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Post by sheepy on Nov 16, 2023 16:23:53 GMT
This resentment comes from a misunderstanding that is deliberately fostered by the left. The alternative to 'feeding profits to the investors' is for the workforce to pay for their own plant, machinery and tooling out of their wages. When faced with the prospect taking on gigantic loans in order to do a job, most workers accept that they would rather the risks and hassle associated with that role be taken on by someone else - the people taking on this role are 'the investors'. This resolution leaves the workers with just one liability - doing their job. Is the right answer. I'm an investor and I expect to see a return on my investment. That's the quid pro quo. And if I don't get a return then I don't invest and the workforce will find themselves out of a job. You might if you take out a lot more than you put in and call it a return, which without the workers turning over revenue, you might find there is nothing to invest in and you have lost everything.
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Post by om15 on Nov 16, 2023 16:53:07 GMT
Absolutely, that is how real life works, the world doesn't owe you a living was one of the early things I was taught at school. I don't suppose they teach that now of course.
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