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Post by see2 on Nov 9, 2023 20:45:46 GMT
1948? Oh, you mean after the Palestinian Arabs rejected the two state solution and followed that with the war when 5 Arab armies and a group of Palestinian Arab fighters tried to annihilate Israel. And Israel was still not free of the threat of annihilation from the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab nations even after they won the war for survival. Funny how you get your information so mixed up. The Arabs sent militias rather than armies while the US and Russia armed the Jewish groups in Palestine. Jordan had the biggest contingent yet their King was more interested in taking land for Jordan than preserving a Palestinian state. The Jewish groups also acquired Bombers and fighter planes......... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_WarWell thanks very much, I have read just under half of the Wiki you posted. My conclusion is that the Arabs got it wrong in seriously underestimating the Israeli determination to survive as a nation and their ability to organise themselves. IMO the article misses the important area of the growing aggression and conflict the Palestinian Arabs imposed upon the Palestinian Jews after Dhimmitude was lifted off the Jews in 1858, this 'lifting' made the Palestinian Jews equal in the country to the Palestinian Arabs. It was something the Arabs strongly objected to. It laid the foundations for the increasing violence between the rivals in the lead up to the 1948 clashes. In short it should surprise no one that the Arabs rejected the twin state solution, after all the Arabs had been looking down their noses at the second class citizens called Jews for around 1500 years. Missing out the history of aggression by the Arabs against the Jews does IMO give a false picture of the situation when arriving at the problems of 1947 and the years immediately following.
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Post by see2 on Nov 9, 2023 20:52:58 GMT
1948? Oh, you mean after the Palestinian Arabs rejected the two state solution and followed that with the war when 5 Arab armies and a group of Palestinian Arab fighters tried to annihilate Israel. And Israel was still not free of the threat of annihilation from the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab nations even after they won the war for survival. Funny how you get your information so mixed up. No. When 600,000 palestinoans were forced out of their land, as you well know but refuse to acknowledge. I cant have a dscussion with someone who seems to have selective dementia. You are hereby ignored. You mean when they made way for the Arab ARMIES to destroy Israel. Your fixed opinion lets you down.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 10, 2023 8:06:22 GMT
When did the people of the Ukraine decide to join the EU? I must have missed it. And Russia thinks that they have a promise from the West not to extend the reach of NATO further east. The war in Ukraine is obviously a complete failure of diplomacy between the EU and Russia. It only happened because Biden is so pro-EU. If Trump had been president he would have got the two sides together and sorted it out before it came to war. When they elected into power a government with the policy of joining the EU? i don't buy that. If a govt wants to give away your country's sovereignty that has to be specifically agreed by a referendum. It can't just be a policy among many others in a manifesto. Russia thinks that they had a promise not to extend NATO to the east and the EU have ignored that promise. It was a classic case of poor diplomacy on the part of the EU - Putin needs careful handling.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 8:06:56 GMT
I asked an adult question. What about the settler land thefts. It is you responding with shite and childish personal attacks. What does a single word you have said contribute to the debate? It is because of your repeated lies and denigration aimed at me in your posts, (which I repeatedly pointed out), is the reason your "adult question" has been ignored. For reasons best known to yourself, you just don't get it. Well I will simply ask the question. What about the settler land thefts?
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 10, 2023 8:10:11 GMT
When they elected into power a government with the policy of joining the EU? i don't buy that. If a govt wants to give away your country's sovereignty that has to be specifically agreed by a referendum. It can't just be a policy among many others in a manifesto. Russia thinks that they had a promise not to extend NATO to the east and the EU have ignored that promise. It was a classic case of poor diplomacy on the part of the EU - Putin needs careful handling. We never had a referendum on joining the EU - why should Ukraine be held to a different standard?
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Post by sandypine on Nov 10, 2023 9:10:04 GMT
It is because of your repeated lies and denigration aimed at me in your posts, (which I repeatedly pointed out), is the reason your "adult question" has been ignored. For reasons best known to yourself, you just don't get it. Well I will simply ask the question. What about the settler land thefts? Land thefts happen all over the world I am not clear why Israeli land theft is somehow far worse. China thieves land, Myanmar thieves land even the UK thieves land in the name of HS2
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 11:20:33 GMT
Well I will simply ask the question. What about the settler land thefts? Land thefts happen all over the world I am not clear why Israeli land theft is somehow far worse. China thieves land, Myanmar thieves land even the UK thieves land in the name of HS2 Compulsory purchase of land for construction projects within a nation, fully compensated, is not the same as theft of land by one people from another. That you apparently cannot tell the difference on something as obvious as that makes debate with you on this a potentially tiresome and unfruitful prospect. The Israeli land thefts are an issue because they are stealing the land of other peoples today. It is both recent, prolonged and ongoing. China has occupied a few contested islands, illegally took Tibet 73 years ago and is posing a constant threat to Taiwan. Taiwan however remains only a threat for now but if it becomes real it will be condemned. Tibet occupation has been condemned many times, but as an occupation rather than a land theft. The land theft took place a lifetime ago. The Jewish settler land thefts are current and ongoing and a constant factor militating against peace. To compare that with HS2 is risible, laughable, pathetic, and an argument borne out of either profound desperation or profound ignorance. When it comes to stupid comparisons, thats the biggest one I have heard so far this month, and is likely to remain so unless see 2 rocks up to compare Tony Blair with Jesus, or Bill Bloggs appears to compare Hitler with the Archbishop of Canterbury, lol Besides which, attempting to justify a wrong which is clearly contributing towards ill will in the area, by the pathetic argument that everybody else is doing it, is the defence of a ten year old caught doing something naughty, and most unconvincing. And for the most part untrue anyway. Where other land thefts are occurring we are condemning them or even supplying arms to those whose lands are being stolen, as in Ukraine. And if you are wondering why so many of us are less vocal about Ukraine and such like it is because we dont have to be. Our own government is doing it for us whilst offering zero support to the land stealers. Which does not hold true for the settler land thefts, which is why those of us who feel strongly about injustice feel it incumbent upon ourselves to speak out
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Post by see2 on Nov 10, 2023 11:41:43 GMT
It is because of your repeated lies and denigration aimed at me in your posts, (which I repeatedly pointed out), is the reason your "adult question" has been ignored. For reasons best known to yourself, you just don't get it. Well I will simply ask the question. What about the settler land thefts? Thank you. In order to avoid any confusion could you put the question in full that you would like me to answer.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 12:04:17 GMT
Well I will simply ask the question. What about the settler land thefts? Thank you. In order to avoid any confusion could you put the question in full that you would like me to answer. What is your opinion on the settler land thefts? Do you think they are wrong or unhelpful? Or do you not see them as thefts, in which case on what grounds? Are the settlers right to build their settlements in the west bank? If so, on what basis? If not, what do you think the best course of action to be in regards to them? Once upon a time Israel conquered the whole of the Sinai peninsular. It gave it back to Egypt as part of a historic peace deal that has stood the test of time. Egypt has not threatened Israel at any time since then. If it were possible, and it is obvious that right now it probably isnt since feeling on both sides is running too high, but if it were at some future point possible, would you regard it as reasonable for Israel to give up the whole of the west bank including the occupied settlements in pursuit of peace? These are the general areas I am asking for your opinion on.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 10, 2023 12:09:44 GMT
The Sinai is a desert area yet surrounded by Egypt and Saudi Arabia might not be easy to defend in future for a small nation.
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Post by see2 on Nov 10, 2023 12:19:02 GMT
Thank you. In order to avoid any confusion could you put the question in full that you would like me to answer. What is your opinion on the settler land thefts? Do you think they are wrong or unhelpful? Or do you not see them as thefts, in which case on what grounds? Are the settlers right to build their settlements in the west bank? If so, on what basis? If not, what do you think the best course of action to be in regards to them? Once upon a time Israel conquered the whole of the Sinai peninsular. It gave it back to Egypt as part of a historic peace deal that has stood the test of time. Egypt has not threatened Israel at any time since then. If it were possible, and it is obvious that right now it probably isnt since feeling on both sides is running too high, but if it were at some future point possible, would you regard it as reasonable for Israel to give up the whole of the west bank including the occupied settlements in pursuit of peace? These are the general areas I am asking for your opinion on. The settler land thefts are wrong. I have made that point a number of times over the last two or three years. Israel and Egypt have managed to live in peace since, but that peace is based upon Egypt dropping its threat to annihilate Israel. i.e. They could live in peace with each other. I honestly believe that there is realistically nothing the Israelis can do that would allow them to be allowed to live in peace in an Israeli area of Jurisdiction (not in total control) in Palestine.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 10, 2023 12:44:25 GMT
Egypt would have been controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood following the elections after the Arab Spring.
Their military decided this would cause problems with the super power of the day the USA, who had recently destabilised Libya so over-ruled democracy.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 10, 2023 13:16:43 GMT
i don't buy that. If a govt wants to give away your country's sovereignty that has to be specifically agreed by a referendum. It can't just be a policy among many others in a manifesto. Russia thinks that they had a promise not to extend NATO to the east and the EU have ignored that promise. It was a classic case of poor diplomacy on the part of the EU - Putin needs careful handling. We never had a referendum on joining the EU - why should Ukraine be held to a different standard? We did have a referendum on joining the Common Market, which changed into the EEC. Major didn't bother to have a referendum on Maastricht, which effectively gave away our sovereignty - but look what happened. Ukraine should learn from this. Any change of this magnitude should be put to a referendum and the various campaigns given a chance to put their point of view. And the countries in the EU should be allowed to veto it. Ukraine joining NATO is likely to lead to WWIII.
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Post by see2 on Nov 10, 2023 13:17:24 GMT
Egypt would have been controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood following the elections after the Arab Spring. Their military decided this would cause problems with the super power of the day the USA, who had recently destabilised Libya so over-ruled democracy. Possibly but a reasonable question that would have arisen is, would there be any elections held after their election to office? The Muslim Brotherhood does not represent the Freedoms that the Arab Spring was about. The Brotherhood (the parents of Hamas) is an extremist religious organisation, they have a few times come into the headlines for attacking Christian Churches and shops owned by Christians in Egypt.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 10, 2023 13:27:42 GMT
Egypt would have been controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood following the elections after the Arab Spring. Their military decided this would cause problems with the super power of the day the USA, who had recently destabilised Libya so over-ruled democracy. Possibly but a reasonable question that would have arisen is, would there be any elections held after their election to office? The Muslim Brotherhood does not represent the Freedoms that the Arab Spring was about. The Brotherhood (the parents of Hamas) is an extremist religious organisation, they have a few times come into the headlines for attacking Christian Churches and shops owned by Christians in Egypt. Well there is a problem, urban populations might want a progressive democracy, rural populations want an Islamic law. Reminds me of Ergodan with his democratic government with a strong Muslim influence, he seems to have a winning formula though inflation is a concern.
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