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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 10:28:40 GMT
The moment the remain campaign lost the Europhiles turned fascist and advocated ignoring democracy because they didn't like the result. It was a stupid reaction to a sensible vote. Brexit is an economic and social success. The remoaners need to get over it and start considering putting forward policies of their own instead of constantly looking backwards and considering dictatorial behaviour. No one stepped outside of the democratic constitution....except Boris Johnson who tried to prorogue parliament to silence it. Democratically elected MPs are free to vote as they choose, particularly when any referendum was not binding by law. Had they succeeded in preventing Brexit we would have had the chance to punish them for it at the ballot box in due course. and elected someone who would enact it. But I seem to recall that it was mostly just the Lib Dems who wanted to ignore the referendum result. Labour wanted to give the people a say on whether they wanted the deal that was negotiated or not, once it had become clear that it was not what was promised, ie more democracy not less. It was Brexiteers who were running scared from that one, afraid the people might not vote the way they wanted. Yet they claim the democratic high ground. Remainers mostly feel vindicated by the utter disaster that is Brexit. How on earth you can call it an economic and social success is beyond me. Socially it has made our nation more insular with more overt racism and xenophobia. Some social success that is. And almost every reputable economist will tell you that it has damaged us by imposing restrictions on the free trade of goods between us and our largest trading partner. But most have moved on and instead of looking back as you claim, are thinking of ways of limiting the damage by making trade between us and the EU easier again. If the current shower of shite in power are capable of doing that its about time they did it. But Labour is more likely to be able to limit the damage, because they don't have any silly rabid EU-phobic wing who seem to think the EU is some sort of cross between the Fourth Reich and the EUSSR, who would scrap anything to do with the EU including many good laws just because they are EU laws, and would oppose any cooperation or alignment with the EU as a matter of principle, however potentially beneficial. People who think like this in the Tory rank and file are problably a large majority. Any Tory MP minded to be sensible is inevitably constrained by this. If we want to make Brexit work we need people other than the Tories to be in charge of it. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 2, 2023 10:36:15 GMT
We don't have a written constitution.
Brexit is NOT a disaster, how can you call it a disaster when unemployment is down, growth is up, we've dodged recession, we've more free trade agreements than the EU.
And, there's nothing racist or xenophobic about calling for economic immigration controls based upon skills and means rather than passports.
The proposal by Keir Starmer of a 2nd in out referendum was an attempt to sabotage.
He should instead have proposed a how we leave referendum rather than an IF.
But, being an idiot, didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 10:45:53 GMT
The losing side are not in power. It is not the role of the losing side to make it work. It is the role of the winning side. The losing sides role is to campaign for what they believe in. The winning side need to make what they won work. They are the ones who said it would and argued that it would. Remainers are not sabotaging it. They are not in power. And in any case nothing is set in stone in democratic votes. Peoples votes can change. You seem to think that because someone wins an election, everybody else has to agree with them. Doesnt work like that sunlight. Freedom of speech and all that. I for one would never argue for something I never voted for and do not support, nor would you. Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. Most people do accept the outcome but want to make it work better because it is proving disastrous at the moment. And it is incumbent upon those in power to make it work, and that is not former Remainers right now. So if it isnt working blame your own side. And if it becomes clear that a majority of the people believe Brexit was a mistake and that closer alignment with the EU is in our best interests, it is legitimate for politicians to respond to that by offering that at the ballot box. If any political party were to win an election having promised another referendum on anything at all, it would have a democratic mandate for that. Thus far no major party is calling for that. Labour merely wants to limit the damage by making trade between us and the EU less restricted again. Many of us of course could see that the Brexit we have is very much the shit show we knew it would be. But Leave voters believed all the lies they were told, with many still deluding themselves. But it is becoming clear to growing numbers of them that we have not gotten the Brexit that was promised and that they were lied to, consequent to which a majority of the electorate according to polling now believe that Brexit was a mistake, though only a minority want to reopen the issue completely by trying to reverse it. But the direction of travel is against the Brexiteers right now and will continue to be so unless Brexit is seen to be working well. No referendum result need ever set anything in stone for all time. People's minds can change - as they are gradually doing - and if in consequence anyone is ever elected on a mandate to bring us closer to the EU or even a referendum on rejoining, that too is democracy in action. It is worth noting that 7 years have now passed since the referendum. Substantial numbers of people who voted in it are no longer with us, whilst anyone under 25 now were never asked then, so why should they consider the result binding for all time? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 10:52:13 GMT
We don't have a written constitution. Brexit is NOT a disaster, how can you call it a disaster when unemployment is down, growth is up, we've dodged recession, we've more free trade agreements than the EU. And, there's nothing racist or xenophobic about calling for economic immigration controls based upon skills and means rather than passports. The proposal by Keir Starmer of a 2nd in out referendum was an attempt to sabotage. He should instead have proposed a how we leave referendum rather than an IF. But, being an idiot, didn't. I am no fan of Starmer as you know, but I believe the vast majority of reputable economists probably have a better handle on what Brexit has done to us than you or the partisan media outlets you consume do. It has made inflation worse than it would otherwise have been for one thing, and hindered trade between us and the EU. Our economy is smaller than it would otherwise have been, growth lower. And low unemployment masks a massive problem of gross under-employment, with millions struggling on part time pay. The NHS staffing crisis has been made so much worse by so many EU nationals employed in it no longer feeling welcome and going home. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 2, 2023 10:57:47 GMT
Economists such as Patrick Minford, Gerard Lyons, Ruth Lea and others would disagree with you as would published economic data from the ONS which shows project fear was nonesense.
And the NHS staffing crisis is more due to pay and conditions than the fact that free movement ended.
Free movement, is a system of immigration based on passports, not skills.
You call us xenophobes. There's nothing xenophobic about wanting the skilled (regardless of their ethnicity) to come here whilst discouraging those who will fail and end up homeless from making such a mistake.
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Post by thomas on Nov 2, 2023 11:02:14 GMT
Referendums don't really fit into our representative democracy constitution and the 2016 referendum was particularly vague - it specified we should leave the Eu (or strictly speaking advised we should) but was silent on exactly what that option looked like. Leaving the EU but remaining in the Common Market and the Customs Union for example would absolutely have fulfilled the mandate of the referendum. That left parliament to work out what to do between the various options. As it happens they chose a pretty "hard" version, although it seems not a hard enough version for some but given the closeness of the result probably a version that if it had been known and voted on at the referendum would have resulted in a "remain outcome" . It was an unholy mess. Hypothetically had a two stage second referendum been held say in 2018 with an initial three option vote - remain, deal we did, no deal narrowing down lets say to a two option final vote - remain or deal we did and remain won that vote, what would the "democratically" valid option the Government should then follow. Sorry but i completely disagree with your post. I voted remain in 2016 , and would do so again , but trying to spin what brexit really meant so remainers could take the lightest possible hit from losing the referendum is laughable.
Clearly remaining in the customs union was a non starter , and even stalwart europhiles like blair said that leaving the customs union so the uk could do its own trade deals was the only point he ever saw in brexit.
The public arent stupid.
As Clowns like keir starmer and his "make brexit work " mantra , ie a rehash of BRINO is about to find out if he becomes the next pm.
Im not sure why instead of rehashing the same tired old arguments ,that have been rejected time and again , you dont jsut come out and say we lost , we move on , and if we win the next election , the uk is going back into the EU as per our democratic mandate.
Starmer wont though will he? Instead , all these poor , and they are extremely poor , attempts at brexit sophistry are going to back fire spectacularly , breathe new life into a floundering brexit , and turn the uk into a smouldering skip fire.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 2, 2023 11:02:32 GMT
Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. Most people do accept the outcome but want to make it work better because it is proving disastrous at the moment. And it is incumbent upon those in power to make it work, and that is not former Remainers right now. So if it isnt working blame your own side. And if it becomes clear that a majority of the people believe Brexit was a mistake and that closer alignment with the EU is in our best interests, it is legitimate for politicians to respond to that by offering that at the ballot box. If any political party were to win an election having promised another referendum on anything at all, it would have a democratic mandate for that. Thus far no major party is calling for that. Labour merely wants to limit the damage by making trade between us and the EU less restricted again. Many of us of course could see that the Brexit we have is very much the shit show we knew it would be. But Leave voters believed all the lies they were told, with many still deluding themselves. But it is becoming clear to growing numbers of them that we have not gotten the Brexit that was promised and that they were lied to, consequent to which a majority of the electorate according to polling now believe that Brexit was a mistake, though only a minority want to reopen the issue completely by trying to reverse it. But the direction of travel is against the Brexiteers right now and will continue to be so unless Brexit is seen to be working well. No referendum result need ever set anything in stone for all time. People's minds can change - as they are gradually doing - and if in consequence anyone is ever elected on a mandate to bring us closer to the EU or even a referendum on rejoining, that too is democracy in action. It is worth noting that 7 years have now passed since the referendum. Substantial numbers of people who voted in it are no longer with us, whilst anyone under 25 now were never asked then, so why should they consider the result binding for all time? How about 40 years like the last one, the thing that has really hurt the economy is losing millions of private sector jobs due to COVID. Councils are struggling with bankruptcy due to housing benefit as so many jobs have gone. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 2, 2023 11:06:30 GMT
Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. It is worth noting that 7 years have now passed since the referendum. Substantial numbers of people who voted in it are no longer with us, whilst anyone under 25 now were never asked then, so why should they consider the result binding for all time? i dont agree with the premise of sandys argument. The public were asked to vote , and gave an answer. They dont have to accept anything , as they arent the ones enforcing the result. The politicians are the ones who have to accept the democratic mandate .
No result is binding for all time. That phrase is the very antithesis of democracy. Surely testing public opinion on a regular basis is what democracy is all about?
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Post by thomas on Nov 2, 2023 11:07:51 GMT
Most people do accept the outcome but want to make it work better because it is proving disastrous at the moment. And it is incumbent upon those in power to make it work, and that is not former Remainers right now. So if it isnt working blame your own side. And if it becomes clear that a majority of the people believe Brexit was a mistake and that closer alignment with the EU is in our best interests, it is legitimate for politicians to respond to that by offering that at the ballot box. If any political party were to win an election having promised another referendum on anything at all, it would have a democratic mandate for that. Thus far no major party is calling for that. Labour merely wants to limit the damage by making trade between us and the EU less restricted again. Many of us of course could see that the Brexit we have is very much the shit show we knew it would be. But Leave voters believed all the lies they were told, with many still deluding themselves. But it is becoming clear to growing numbers of them that we have not gotten the Brexit that was promised and that they were lied to, consequent to which a majority of the electorate according to polling now believe that Brexit was a mistake, though only a minority want to reopen the issue completely by trying to reverse it. But the direction of travel is against the Brexiteers right now and will continue to be so unless Brexit is seen to be working well. No referendum result need ever set anything in stone for all time. People's minds can change - as they are gradually doing - and if in consequence anyone is ever elected on a mandate to bring us closer to the EU or even a referendum on rejoining, that too is democracy in action. It is worth noting that 7 years have now passed since the referendum. Substantial numbers of people who voted in it are no longer with us, whilst anyone under 25 now were never asked then, so why should they consider the result binding for all time? How about 40 years like the last one, the thing that has really hurt the economy is losing millions of private sector jobs due to COVID. Councils are struggling with bankruptcy due to housing benefit as so many jobs have gone. the uk government has an official treaty in place that argues 7 years is acceptable for retesting public opinion , so im not sure why that cant be the benchmark? |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 2, 2023 12:01:11 GMT
How about 40 years like the last one, the thing that has really hurt the economy is losing millions of private sector jobs due to COVID. Councils are struggling with bankruptcy due to housing benefit as so many jobs have gone. the uk government has an official treaty in place that argues 7 years is acceptable for retesting public opinion , so im not sure why that cant be the benchmark? So why then have they blocked Scotland's referendum? |
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Post by thomas on Nov 2, 2023 12:08:58 GMT
the uk government has an official treaty in place that argues 7 years is acceptable for retesting public opinion , so im not sure why that cant be the benchmark? So why then have they blocked Scotland's referendum? because they are anti democratic.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 2, 2023 12:20:06 GMT
That doesn’t refute my point but it does give you something to hang obfuscation on. Another chuckle post from yourself, it absolutely does refute your point, its just that you are too obstinate to acknowledge the reality. No it doesn’t . You are not intelligent enough to realise it . |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2023 12:46:46 GMT
Another chuckle post from yourself, it absolutely does refute your point, its just that you are too obstinate to acknowledge the reality. No it doesn’t . You are not intelligent enough to realise it . You will even lie to make your point seem valid, tut tut. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 2, 2023 12:49:01 GMT
No it doesn’t . You are not intelligent enough to realise it . You will even lie to make your point seem valid, tut tut. More projection . At least you are consistent. Boring but consistent. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2023 13:24:10 GMT
You will even lie to make your point seem valid, tut tut. More projection . At least you are consistent. Boring but consistent. You exposing your lack of intelligence is quite amusing, but I have already spent too much time in your schoolyard. Bye. |
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