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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 19:39:00 GMT
Couldn’t let this pass Steve. On the surface no. So you are resorting to some conspiracy theory by which the Remainers are somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes and thwarting the will of the people and the government of Brexiteers in office? Desperate stuff. You need either more plausible arguments, more supporting evidence, or more tin foil to make hats out of. Nope. It’s pretty clear that the establishment ie civil servants ,half the government ,media, finance etc were and are pro EU . The vote took place outside of where power lies . Which supports my point that vote leave was a case of democracy being an illusion . |
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Post by wapentake on Nov 1, 2023 19:47:11 GMT
Couldn’t let this pass Steve. On the surface no. So you are resorting to some conspiracy theory by which the Remainers are somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes and thwarting the will of the people and the government of Brexiteers in office? Desperate stuff. You need either more plausible arguments, more supporting evidence, or more tin foil to make hats out of. Desparate? Oh come on Steve we both know the majority only took on the mantle of brexiteer because they saw it as a route to power. As for the civil service a definite misnomer,they don’t see themselves as anybody’s servant nor judging by the evidence at the covid enquiry certainly not civil.  |
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 20:17:35 GMT
The Trump coup claim is a laugh, a number of the people arrested had a lot of weapons yet did not bring any just enthusiastic protesters that got carried away and should have had more sense. The Democrats decided to politicise it to maximum effect to undermine any serious efforts to investigate election fraud. Most of the non-Democracies are where the military and police are too close to the government of the day so effectively prevent any political opposition. The West use the media to destroy any would be nationalists though lost this on Brexit yet remember they labelled us as xenophobes and racists before accepting the vote. The Trump coup was real enough as far as Trump was concerned, its just that his supporters did not have the same level of madness that was in Trumps head. __"A prominent supporter of the baseless QAnon conspiracy has been sentenced to 41 months in prison for his involvement in the US Capitol riot. Jacob Anthony Chansley was among the Trump supporters who tried to stop Congress from certifying the 2020 presidential election on 6 January. He earlier pleaded guilty to one felony count of obstruction in an official proceeding. His sentence is among the longest so far given in connection to the riots"__ If the rioters had been successful Trump would have still been president with plenty of time to make the changes to keep himself in office for a longer period. He has spoken about the extreme power, in his opinion, held in the hands of the President AFAIA, the president of the USA is the 'Commander in Chief of the Military' or of the Armed Forces. I suspect that many of the 'Outers' at least had traces of xenophobia, and many will be feeling they now have egg on their face. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 20:35:44 GMT
Yes I was unsure about your original post AND SAID SO. My so called "alleged superiority over others" "alleged" by whom? It is of course, just more of your phantasy thinking. The easily led electorate is an obvious, Thatcher in office for 11 years despite the economic and social damage she did, she had to be off loaded by her own party, that's how easily led the electorate can be. so that was a fair comment. Cutting off a relevant part of my sentence in an attempt to create a false insinuation is just disgusting. The only foolishness I referred to was -- "the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum". So do at least make an effort to be honest. “plus an easily led electorate, exposed the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum” was your fantasy and one you repeat ad nauseum in one form or another . No false insinuation here . This is a perfect example of the deluded believing others are the deluded ones . Real democracy depends on the losers to respect the winners . For the nays to support the yays and vice versa. So many ex remainers seemed to forget this from the point that they lost the referendum. That’s why or maybe at least a sign that democracy doesn’t exist . Move on . Again you chop a sentence in order to imply the lie you wish to imply. Even so let me educate you. The CHOPPED sentence read. 'something __“plus an easily led electorate , exposed the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum”. The comma indicates two separate points. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2023 20:40:10 GMT
It is you who cannot except not having things your own way for all time. You cannot accept that people who vote one way are free to vote another later if they are persuaded to change their minds, and that people who disagree with any democratic outcome have the freedom to persuade others to vote differently next time. You just want the people who disagree with you to shut the fuck up after any election you win. If the people you disagree with win a democratic vote at the next general election will you shut the fuck up and support them? Or will you disagree from the sidelines as is your democratic right? Because freedom and democracy includes the right to disagree with an outcome even whilst accepting the result until the next time. So people are free to speak out against or campaign for everything and anything, knowing that in the end the people will decide. And if the people decide one thing at any particular time, that does not mean it is decided for all time. Because the will of the people is never set in stone and they may freely choose to vote very differently on a subsequent occasion. Thats democracy. You just posted a stream of ex remainer projection . If the losing side on the leave vote recognised democracy they would of accepted the vote and came together with the winning side to find a way to make it work . They didn’t . No amount of your verbiage and projection can disguise it. They took part in a referendum, lost , then tried to undermine the majority decision . Your huffing and puffing merely confirms it . The losing side are not in power. It is not the role of the losing side to make it work. It is the role of the winning side. The losing sides role is to campaign for what they believe in. The winning side need to make what they won work. They are the ones who said it would and argued that it would. Remainers are not sabotaging it. They are not in power. And in any case nothing is set in stone in democratic votes. Peoples votes can change. You seem to think that because someone wins an election, everybody else has to agree with them. Doesnt work like that sunshine. Freedom of speech and all that. I for one would never argue for something I never voted for and do not support, nor would you. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2023 20:43:22 GMT
So you are resorting to some conspiracy theory by which the Remainers are somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes and thwarting the will of the people and the government of Brexiteers in office? Desperate stuff. You need either more plausible arguments, more supporting evidence, or more tin foil to make hats out of. Nope. It’s pretty clear that the establishment ie civil servants ,half the government ,media, finance etc were and are pro EU . The vote took place outside of where power lies . Which supports my point that vote leave was a case of democracy being an illusion . A conspiracy theory in other words. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 20:44:30 GMT
“plus an easily led electorate, exposed the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum” was your fantasy and one you repeat ad nauseum in one form or another . No false insinuation here . This is a perfect example of the deluded believing others are the deluded ones . Real democracy depends on the losers to respect the winners . For the nays to support the yays and vice versa. So many ex remainers seemed to forget this from the point that they lost the referendum. That’s why or maybe at least a sign that democracy doesn’t exist . Move on . Again you chop a sentence in order to imply the lie you wish to imply. Even so let me educate you. The CHOPPED sentence read. 'something __“plus an easily led electorate , exposed the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum”. The comma indicates two separate points. That doesn’t refute my point but it does give you something to hang obfuscation on. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 20:50:51 GMT
Nope. It’s pretty clear that the establishment ie civil servants ,half the government ,media, finance etc were and are pro EU . The vote took place outside of where power lies . Which supports my point that vote leave was a case of democracy being an illusion . A conspiracy theory in other words. Not a theory . You use the term in a mindless way because in your head it alludes to a hidden Illuminati. I agree with Peter Hitchens who said’ Of course conspiracy theory is real..it’s called lunch “. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 20:57:47 GMT
You just posted a stream of ex remainer projection . If the losing side on the leave vote recognised democracy they would of accepted the vote and came together with the winning side to find a way to make it work . They didn’t . No amount of your verbiage and projection can disguise it. They took part in a referendum, lost , then tried to undermine the majority decision . Your huffing and puffing merely confirms it . The losing side are not in power. It is not the role of the losing side to make it work. It is the role of the winning side. The losing sides role is to campaign for what they believe in. The winning side need to make what they won work. They are the ones who said it would and argued that it would. Remainers are not sabotaging it. They are not in power. And in any case nothing is set in stone in democratic votes. Peoples votes can change. You seem to think that because someone wins an election, everybody else has to agree with them. Doesnt work like that sunlight. Freedom of speech and all that. I for one would never argue for something I never voted for and do not support, nor would you. They have power . They are half of the government and most of the media and the civil service ….sunbeam ( lol) If a government had overwhelming power then they would have a de facto dictatorship as long as they were in power. Outside power sources are at least as powerful as sitting governments. Remainers sabotaged it from day one . They had the power to ignore democracy and they exercised it . |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 1, 2023 21:17:55 GMT
The moment the remain campaign lost the Europhiles turned fascist and advocated ignoring democracy because they didn't like the result.
It was a stupid reaction to a sensible vote.
Brexit is an economic and social success.
The remoaners need to get over it and start considering putting forward policies of their own instead of constantly looking backwards and considering dictatorial behaviour.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 1, 2023 21:29:22 GMT
You just posted a stream of ex remainer projection . If the losing side on the leave vote recognised democracy they would of accepted the vote and came together with the winning side to find a way to make it work . They didn’t . No amount of your verbiage and projection can disguise it. They took part in a referendum, lost , then tried to undermine the majority decision . Your huffing and puffing merely confirms it . The losing side are not in power. It is not the role of the losing side to make it work. It is the role of the winning side. The losing sides role is to campaign for what they believe in. The winning side need to make what they won work. They are the ones who said it would and argued that it would. Remainers are not sabotaging it. They are not in power. And in any case nothing is set in stone in democratic votes. Peoples votes can change. You seem to think that because someone wins an election, everybody else has to agree with them. Doesnt work like that sunlight. Freedom of speech and all that. I for one would never argue for something I never voted for and do not support, nor would you. Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2023 9:32:12 GMT
Again you chop a sentence in order to imply the lie you wish to imply. Even so let me educate you. The CHOPPED sentence read. 'something __“plus an easily led electorate , exposed the foolishness of this country indulging in referendum”. The comma indicates two separate points. That doesn’t refute my point but it does give you something to hang obfuscation on. Another chuckle post from yourself, it absolutely does refute your point, its just that you are too obstinate to acknowledge the reality. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 2, 2023 9:39:28 GMT
The losing side are not in power. It is not the role of the losing side to make it work. It is the role of the winning side. The losing sides role is to campaign for what they believe in. The winning side need to make what they won work. They are the ones who said it would and argued that it would. Remainers are not sabotaging it. They are not in power. And in any case nothing is set in stone in democratic votes. Peoples votes can change. You seem to think that because someone wins an election, everybody else has to agree with them. Doesnt work like that sunlight. Freedom of speech and all that. I for one would never argue for something I never voted for and do not support, nor would you. Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. I voted remain, but I instantly accepted the result. I had no option. That has not stopped me from exposing some of the faults of both the referendum itself and its results so far. The Outers should be big enough to accept criticism where it is due. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 2, 2023 9:44:42 GMT
Wrong as regards referendums. It is the duty of all to abide by a decision and make that decision work as it would be incumbent on Leave to accept membership. After the 75 referendum there was no shouting for another go and all accepted the result, not necessarily with good grace, but it was accepted as a result. A referendum is a decision making process for the electorate. Taking part is accepting the outcome and joining in making it work. That is the uncomfortable part of democracy. No one says you have to like it or support it or even argue for it but they do expect some form of acceptance as the route to be taken. I voted remain, but I instantly accepted the result. I had no option. That has not stopped me from exposing some of the faults of both the referendum itself and its results so far. The Outers should be big enough to accept criticism where it is due. However the 'outers' have noted that many did all in their power to reverse the decision through many blocking tactics and using the power of government, parliament and the law to change the outcome. Even now 'being out' is not actually what has happened. |
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Post by dappy on Nov 2, 2023 9:59:43 GMT
Referendums don't really fit into our representative democracy constitution and the 2016 referendum was particularly vague - it specified we should leave the Eu (or strictly speaking advised we should) but was silent on exactly what that option looked like. Leaving the EU but remaining in the Common Market and the Customs Union for example would absolutely have fulfilled the mandate of the referendum. That left parliament to work out what to do between the various options. As it happens they chose a pretty "hard" version, although it seems not a hard enough version for some but given the closeness of the result probably a version that if it had been known and voted on at the referendum would have resulted in a "remain outcome" . It was an unholy mess.
Hypothetically had a two stage second referendum been held say in 2018 with an initial three option vote - remain, deal we did, no deal narrowing down lets say to a two option final vote - remain or deal we did and remain won that vote, what would the "democratically" valid option the Government should then follow.
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