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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 18:26:17 GMT
If there is the political will to investigate these will be crimes. What crimes? What evidence is there that 'kick backs' have been provided to politicians for the purpose of expanding EU markets? A UK retired UK minister about 10 years ago spoke about Friends of Israel giving envelopes of cash with a nod and wink to UK MPs with the tacit understanding they would support Israel. Power is corruptible unfortunately. Police were not available to comment and would not interfere anyway, too hard to prove for starters. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 18:26:23 GMT
What this has to do with switzerland is anyones guess.. The Red Cross is headquartered in Switzerland. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 18:30:38 GMT
What crimes? What evidence is there that 'kick backs' have been provided to politicians for the purpose of expanding EU markets? A UK retired UK minister about 10 years ago spoke about Friends of Israel giving envelopes of cash with a nod and wink to UK MPs with the tacit understanding they would support Israel. Power is corruptible unfortunately. Police were not available to comment and would not interfere anyway, too hard to prove for starters. The evidence to support your contention that politicians have accepted bribes to expand the EU market is 10-year-old hearsay about bribes received by British MPs? Have I got that right? |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 18:40:59 GMT
No that was an example of how there is generally corruption and police will not investigate.
Lets consider Pharmaceuticals, these are Switzerland's biggest export and the EU is their biggest market yet the EU has it own Pharmaceutical makers so I would suspect shenanigans to have facilitated Switzerland's companies to supply Europe even though in any trade deal their market is much smaller.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 18:48:19 GMT
No that was an example of how there is generally corruption and police will not investigate. Lets consider Pharmaceuticals, these are Switzerland's biggest export and the EU is their biggest market yet the EU has it own Pharmaceutical makers so I would suspect shenanigans to have facilitated Switzerland's companies to supply Europe even though in any trade deal their market is much smaller. That's it? So, the UK's trade deal with New Zealand was corrupt because the UK has its own lambs? |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 18:50:42 GMT
No that was an example of how there is generally corruption and police will not investigate. Lets consider Pharmaceuticals, these are Switzerland's biggest export and the EU is their biggest market yet the EU has it own Pharmaceutical makers so I would suspect shenanigans to have facilitated Switzerland's companies to supply Europe even though in any trade deal their market is much smaller. Wouldn't it be quicker if you just admitted to being a populist, and, as such, you believe everyone and everything is corrupt? |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 20:07:42 GMT
Switzerland exported €124bn to EU 2022, their corps pay just 14.87% Corp tax which gives them an advantage yet it seems the EU is just interested in the UK's potential competitive advantage which I find kind of strange.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 20:47:58 GMT
Switzerland exported €124bn to EU 2022, their corps pay just 14.87% Corp tax which gives them an advantage yet it seems the EU is just interested in the UK's potential competitive advantage which I find kind of strange. Switzerland's corporate tax rate appears to be higher than several EU members: tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate?continent=europe |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 9, 2022 6:50:04 GMT
And yet, it still successfully demonstrates life lives on outside of the EU. The UK's internal problems don't don't negate the fact life lives on outside the EU. The main reason why the UK is divided is because EU-loyalists cannot let go of the UK's choice to leave the EU, which suitably for them destabilises the politics of the UK. If they can build a bridge the UK could be as politically stable as Switzerland - but I don't think they actually want that to happen. Brexit must be proven to be wrong - by hook or by crook. Those who think Brexit was wrong aren't required to stop saying they think it was wrong. As has been pointed out by others, when a political party wins an election, the losing side doesn't say 'fair enough, you won't hear from us again until another 5 years when the next election is held'. They form the opposition and continue with their opposition to the government's policies. We oppose Brexit and we're not going away. Especially now that the Tories are on their way out. For the first time in years, there is a real prospect of the UK rejoining the CU and the SM. I haven't seen any opposition party wanting to rejoin the EU though. I see no real prospect of the UK rejoining the CU and SM anytime soon either - wishful thinking. You can carry on trying to divide the nation but don't whinge that it is divided and is politically unstable then in comparison to Switzerland like you did. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 9, 2022 7:20:26 GMT
Exactly! Your words, not mine: "The SM ...involves the free movement of goods, capital, services and people." And Switzerland has free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Therefore, it is in the Single Market. Or are you saying that Switzerland does not have FOM? In reality, no country "signs up" to the Single Market in the way that you are presenting it. There is no agreement that specifically, exclusively or separately covers the Single Market -- show me if there is. You're in the Single Market by way of your EU membership or via your bespoke deals. But of course, you can be partly in the SM! Switzerland is proof of that. That is the whole of point of the EU-Switzerland bespoke agreements. It is partly in the Single Market but is totally out of the Customs Union. Switzerland pays partly into the EU budget and projects; it follows EU rules and adopts EU standards in part; it implements FOM in a limited and restricted way. In return, only part of its goods and services can be traded freely within the Single Market. That's the reality. So, tell me, what makes the UK wealthy? Or what helps in making the UK wealthy? We're out now and we're gasping for air. You can't really tell me that it's all down to Covid and the war when the fact is, trade with our largest trading partner is down to start with. Stop moaning about the EU's protectionist policy already. Every nation is protectionist. Every trade bloc is protectionist. Don't tell me that the UK is not protectionist. - Switzerland doesn't have FoM of goods - only those that are covered by bilateral deals - or people. EU citizens can't live in Switzerland without a residency permit. - The SM and CU are separate. Turkey is in the CU but not the SM for example. Which is a very odd arrangement and one that they bitterly regret. - Free trade doesn't necessarily make a country wealthy. If you make a free trade deal with a trading bloc that outcompetes you then you lose the industry that can't stand the competition. That's why the EU is having difficulty making free trade deals now. We were stupid to negotiate a blanket free trade deal with the EU - but our dozy MPs demanded it. Lemmings. - Protectionism can make you poorer. When we were a member of the EU we couldn't trade with our former empire - except with high tariffs. That's the CU in operation. Now we can. - You can't simply sign up to the SM, but as I've said if the Swiss people had wanted to be in the SM they would have opted to join the EEA in the referendum. And you can simply sign up to the EEA. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2022 8:12:13 GMT
Exactly! Your words, not mine: "The SM ...involves the free movement of goods, capital, services and people." And Switzerland has free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Therefore, it is in the Single Market. Or are you saying that Switzerland does not have FOM? In reality, no country "signs up" to the Single Market in the way that you are presenting it. There is no agreement that specifically, exclusively or separately covers the Single Market -- show me if there is. You're in the Single Market by way of your EU membership or via your bespoke deals. But of course, you can be partly in the SM! Switzerland is proof of that. That is the whole of point of the EU-Switzerland bespoke agreements. It is partly in the Single Market but is totally out of the Customs Union. Switzerland pays partly into the EU budget and projects; it follows EU rules and adopts EU standards in part; it implements FOM in a limited and restricted way. In return, only part of its goods and services can be traded freely within the Single Market. That's the reality. So, tell me, what makes the UK wealthy? Or what helps in making the UK wealthy? We're out now and we're gasping for air. You can't really tell me that it's all down to Covid and the war when the fact is, trade with our largest trading partner is down to start with. Stop moaning about the EU's protectionist policy already. Every nation is protectionist. Every trade bloc is protectionist. Don't tell me that the UK is not protectionist. - Switzerland doesn't have FoM of goods - only those that are covered by bilateral deals - or people. EU citizens can't live in Switzerland without a residency permit. - The SM and CU are separate. Turkey is in the CU but not the SM for example. Which is a very odd arrangement and one that they bitterly regret. - Free trade doesn't necessarily make a country wealthy. If you make a free trade deal with a trading bloc that outcompetes you then you lose the industry that can't stand the competition. That's why the EU is having difficulty making free trade deals now. We were stupid to negotiate a blanket free trade deal with the EU - but our dozy MPs demanded it. Lemmings. - Protectionism can make you poorer. When we were a member of the EU we couldn't trade with our former empire - except with high tariffs. That's the CU in operation. Now we can. , Switzerland has FoM of goods. "EU citizens can't live in Switzerland without a residency permit...": EU citizens can live and work with no restrictions for 90 days but if over 90 days, they must obtain residency permit to live and work with no restrictions and with all the rights of a Swiss citizen. Therefore? Switzerland has FoM of people. The EU regrets and dislikes the bilateral agreements they made with the Swiss, according to an article I read somewhere. But the EU isn't like the UK. The EU stands by its agreements. Free Trade per se always makes a country better off, if not wealthy. No tariff, no trade barriers -- ever heard of that? What bugs you is that one party goes home from the negotiations with more. And in the case of the UK, so far it has always ended up with less. All in all, you seem to have problems with competition itself. You want every trading partner to just give you what you want. It ain't gonna happen. Particularly, with the EU. You have to send the best negotiating team to get the advantage -- from the clerks and stenographers to the bean counters to the chief honcho. You are confused. You claim that free trade does not make a country wealthy but in the same breath, protectionism also can make a country poorer. But free trade is the opposite of protectionism. It's either free trade that makes a country poor. Or protectionism. Which is it? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 9, 2022 8:18:59 GMT
That is an interesting statement. If true why has the EU surrounded itself with the largest tariff wall of any trading bloc in the world? - doesn't it want to make its people better off?.
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 9, 2022 9:00:30 GMT
That is an interesting statement. If true why has the EU surrounded itself with the largest tariff wall of any trading bloc in the world? - doesn't it want to make its people better off?. Bit of an own goal from gnome. Britain, historically speaking is/was the every essence of free trade. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2022 10:19:28 GMT
That is an interesting statement. If true why has the EU surrounded itself with the largest tariff wall of any trading bloc in the world? - doesn't it want to make its people better off?. It is a true statement. Or at the very least arguably. I said free trade per se. That is, free trade -- in itself, of itself, by itself, intrinsically, standing alone, placed in a vacuum, isolated, as an idea, as an ideal -- always makes a country better off, if not wealthy since it promotes global trade. The EU surrounded itself with the largest tariff wall (?) because it is protectionist. Nobody, least of all the EU, denies that. And before you try hoisting people up your merry-go-round again -- I did not say and do not say that protectionism does not have its advantages. It just depends on which side of the trading equation a country sits. But really, the morality of protectionism and free trade -- whether one is good and the other is bad -- is another subject. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2022 10:21:00 GMT
That is an interesting statement. If true why has the EU surrounded itself with the largest tariff wall of any trading bloc in the world? - doesn't it want to make its people better off?. Bit of an own goal from gnome. Britain, historically speaking is/was the every essence of free trade. Historically? But Britain imposed sky high tariff on India's products in the past? |
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