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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2022 11:31:01 GMT
And yet, it still successfully demonstrates life lives on outside of the EU. The UK's internal problems don't don't negate the fact life lives on outside the EU. The main reason why the UK is divided is because EU-loyalists cannot let go of the UK's choice to leave the EU, which suitably for them destabilises the politics of the UK. If they can build a bridge the UK could be as politically stable as Switzerland - but I don't think they actually want that to happen. Brexit must be proven to be wrong - by hook or by crook. Those who think Brexit was wrong aren't required to stop saying they think it was wrong. As has been pointed out by others, when a political party wins an election, the losing side doesn't say 'fair enough, you won't hear from us again until another 5 years when the next election is held'. They form the opposition and continue with their opposition to the government's policies. We oppose Brexit and we're not going away. Especially now that the Tories are on their way out. For the first time in years, there is a real prospect of the UK rejoining the CU and the SM.
We never had to leave in the first place.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 11:36:15 GMT
Those who think Brexit was wrong aren't required to stop saying they think it was wrong. As has been pointed out by others, when a political party wins an election, the losing side doesn't say 'fair enough, you won't hear from us again until another 5 years when the next election is held'. They form the opposition and continue with their opposition to the government's policies. We oppose Brexit and we're not going away. Especially now that the Tories are on their way out. For the first time in years, there is a real prospect of the UK rejoining the CU and the SM.
We never had to leave in the first place. Righto, Doc. Your signature is interesting. Now that the 350 million a week lie on the red bus has worked its magic to deliver Brexit, are you now in favour of actually decreasing funding for the NHS? That's what your signature implies. Your signature is the perfect metaphor for Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 13:25:14 GMT
That's what you say. What everyone else says is that Switzerland is part of the Single Market. EEA countries are part of the Single Market, for that matter. The UK has access to the Single Market via its FTA with the EU. Switzerland is part of the Single Market via its bilateral treaties. The difference is that the UK does not pay the EU anything; the UK does not follow EU standards; the UK does not allow FOM; the UK does not follow EU rules. Switzerland does all those things. That's just nonsense. You don't become part of the SM via bilateral treaties. Bilateral treaties on trade remove the need for joining the SM. You're totally confused. Like I said before google is bad way of trying to find information about a subject you don't know anything about. And EEA countries are in the SM - that's what the EEA is. You sign up to it and the SM comes as part of the package. That's what Switzerland didn't want. That's why they spent many years negotiating bespoke bilateral deals. They could have joined the EEA just by signing up. I suggest you stop posting crap and do some reading. Participation in the Single Market is inherent in those bilateral agreements. They are intrinsic. Necessary. Built-in. So, those bilaterals you're talking about? They automatically sign Switzerland up for partial participation in the Single Market. You clearly have got yourself in twist over lexical semantics. You can't accept that "partial participation" is in itself "participation." Now, you can't even distinguish between partial and full participation. So, to help you clear your addled mind: if you pay into the EU coffers; apply their standards; follow their rules; implement FoM of people -- whether partially or fully? -- then you are participating in the Single Market. If you are like the UK whose goods are subject to checks for standards and origins, etc? You don't get to be a part of the Single Market. You only get tariff-free access to the Single Market. No different from the EU-Japan FTA or other EU FTAs. You seem to think that you are well read so as I suggested earlier, why don't you post something that you've read which categorically supports your claim that Switzerland is not in the Single Market. If you dismiss this challenge once more, then it only means that you yourself have not come across such garbage.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 13:48:08 GMT
Switzerland will never be a member state of the EU, never in a million years. Their system of direct democracy in which the people have the power, frightens the unelected eurocrats in Brussels to death. I'm sure the Swiss can come up with their own version of Project Fear if they want to, the Credit Suisse issue might have got some thinking on that too as business elites who provided kick backs to politics always wants bigger markets.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 14:14:25 GMT
Switzerland will never be a member state of the EU, never in a million years. Their system of direct democracy in which the people have the power, frightens the unelected eurocrats in Brussels to death. I'm sure the Swiss can come up with their own version of Project Fear if they want to, the Credit Suisse issue might have got some thinking on that too as business elites who provided kick backs to politics always wants bigger markets. Can you shed more light on the 'business elites who provided kick backs to politics'?
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 8, 2022 14:17:57 GMT
You're just repeating the same old nonsense, gnome. The SM is not just a free trade area - it's the core of the EU and involves the free movement of goods, capital, services and people. It makes it basically like one country. I've worked for years in various countries in Europe. But Switzerland NEVER signed up to the SM. It chose to make bespoke deals to avoid the problems of becoming part of an amorphous "Europe". I could go and live anywhere in the EU - but I couldn't go and live in Switzerland, much as I might have liked to. They don't have free movement.
They also don't have free trade except for the goods that they've made agreements on. You need to try to understand - which I know is difficult for ignorant remainers - that you don't have to sign up to overarching agreements (involving free movement etc) in order to trade with most nations. Most nations trade via bilateral deals (WTO or bespoke). Switzerland trades via bespoke agreements. You can't be partly in the SM. It's like the EU - you're in or you're out.
But you've digressed from the basic point I was making - that membership of the EU doesn't make you wealthy, except if you're Germany. - And even they're not doing very well anymore. FoM has come back to bite them big time. A protectionist trading bloc is an old model now that all the growth is coming from countries outside Europe. It's the small nimble countries that do well in this environment.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 14:49:00 GMT
I'm sure the Swiss can come up with their own version of Project Fear if they want to, the Credit Suisse issue might have got some thinking on that too as business elites who provided kick backs to politics always wants bigger markets. Can you shed more light on the 'business elites who provided kick backs to politics'? It happens all over the Western World and is why the Brexit fight was partly so nasty because large businesses were worried about a smaller market.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 14:54:51 GMT
Can you shed more light on the 'business elites who provided kick backs to politics'? It happens all over the Western World and is why the Brexit fight was partly so nasty because large businesses were worried about a smaller market. Do you have evidence of kick backs to Swiss politicians? I notice that you lot are trying to have your cake and eat it ... again. If Switzerland is the acme of democracy because the people make all the decisions through referendums, then there will be a hell of a lot people to 'provide these kick backs' to. The entire voting population, in fact.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 8, 2022 15:01:46 GMT
It happens all over the Western World and is why the Brexit fight was partly so nasty because large businesses were worried about a smaller market. Do you have evidence of kick backs to Swiss politicians? I notice that you lot are trying to have your cake and eat it ... again. If Switzerland is the acme of democracy because the people make all the decisions through referendums, then there will be a hell of a lot people to 'provide these kick backs' to. The entire voting population, in fact. If there is the political will to investigate these will be crimes. I used to work for an American company and they would not deal with PEPs, or politically exposed people. No reason was given though any accounts had to be referred immediately. It is also widely expected in UK councils too that there is a level of corruption through building deals that get steam-rollered through despite residents being against it. Switzerland may be more resistant due to their preference for referendums. Time will tell.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 15:07:46 GMT
But you've digressed from the basic point I was making - that membership of the EU doesn't make you wealthy, except if you're Germany. - And even they're not doing very well anymore. FoM has come back to bite them big time. A protectionist trading bloc is an old model now that all the growth is coming from countries outside Europe. It's the small nimble countries that do well in this environment. So, you don't think there will be an Eastern economic tiger? We all know Eastern Europeans work very hard. The EU is providing money to improve their infrastructure. Hard work and EU money was the formula for Ireland's success. Why won't that formula be successful in the East? Eastern Europeans work as hard as the Germans, so why shouldn't they achieve economies of the same strength? A Europe with another three or four economies of Germany's size would be an enormous economic powerhouse. The EU planted a money tree on the UK's doorstep when they invested in Ireland. France, Germany, etc., invested in Ireland, in the full knowledge that the UK would be the main beneficiary from the increased investment. And the UK was the main beneficiary, as the newly rich Irish could now afford to buy UK manufactured goods on a dramatically increased scale. Now, the EU hopes to replicate that success in the East. They are investing in Eastern Europe in the expectation that their economies will grow dramatically. When that happens, there will be increased wealth for everyone in the EU. But the UK is contributing nothing to building up these countries' economies - it's not investing in infrastructure in Warsaw, etc. So, will the EU allow the UK to benefit in the way it benefitted from Ireland's economic renaissance? I doubt it. It wouldn't be very fair, would it?
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 15:08:56 GMT
Do you have evidence of kick backs to Swiss politicians? I notice that you lot are trying to have your cake and eat it ... again. If Switzerland is the acme of democracy because the people make all the decisions through referendums, then there will be a hell of a lot people to 'provide these kick backs' to. The entire voting population, in fact. If there is the political will to investigate these will be crimes. What crimes? What evidence is there that 'kick backs' have been provided to politicians for the purpose of expanding EU markets?
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2022 16:14:22 GMT
We never had to leave in the first place. Righto, Doc. Your signature is interesting. Now that the 350 million a week lie on the red bus has worked its magic to deliver Brexit, are you now in favour of actually decreasing funding for the NHS? That's what your signature implies. Your signature is the perfect metaphor for Brexit. What are you dribbling on about now?...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 17:08:58 GMT
You're just repeating the same old nonsense, gnome. The SM is not just a free trade area - it's the core of the EU and involves the free movement of goods, capital, services and people. It makes it basically like one country. I've worked for years in various countries in Europe. But Switzerland NEVER signed up to the SM. It chose to make bespoke deals to avoid the problems of becoming part of an amorphous "Europe". I could go and live anywhere in the EU - but I couldn't go and live in Switzerland, much as I might have liked to. They don't have free movement. They also don't have free trade except for the goods that they've made agreements on. You need to try to understand - which I know is difficult for ignorant remainers - that you don't have to sign up to overarching agreements (involving free movement etc) in order to trade with most nations. Most nations trade via bilateral deals (WTO or bespoke). Switzerland trades via bespoke agreements. You can't be partly in the SM. It's like the EU - you're in or you're out. But you've digressed from the basic point I was making - that membership of the EU doesn't make you wealthy, except if you're Germany. - And even they're not doing very well anymore. FoM has come back to bite them big time. A protectionist trading bloc is an old model now that all the growth is coming from countries outside Europe. It's the small nimble countries that do well in this environment. Exactly! Your words, not mine: "The SM ...involves the free movement of goods, capital, services and people." And Switzerland has free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Therefore, it is in the Single Market. Or are you saying that Switzerland does not have FOM? In reality, no country "signs up" to the Single Market in the way that you are presenting it. There is no agreement that specifically, exclusively or separately covers the Single Market -- show me if there is. You're in the Single Market by way of your EU membership or via your bespoke deals. But of course, you can be partly in the SM! Switzerland is proof of that. That is the whole of point of the EU-Switzerland bespoke agreements. It is partly in the Single Market but is totally out of the Customs Union. Switzerland pays partly into the EU budget and projects; it follows EU rules and adopts EU standards in part; it implements FOM in a limited and restricted way. In return, only part of its goods and services can be traded freely within the Single Market. That's the reality. So, tell me, what makes the UK wealthy? Or what helps in making the UK wealthy? We're out now and we're gasping for air. You can't really tell me that it's all down to Covid and the war when the fact is, trade with our largest trading partner is down to start with. Stop moaning about the EU's protectionist policy already. Every nation is protectionist. Every trade bloc is protectionist. Don't tell me that the UK is not protectionist.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 8, 2022 17:20:44 GMT
Righto, Doc. Your signature is interesting. Now that the 350 million a week lie on the red bus has worked its magic to deliver Brexit, are you now in favour of actually decreasing funding for the NHS? That's what your signature implies. Your signature is the perfect metaphor for Brexit. What are you dribbling on about now?... I'm referring to your signature. You seem to wish to reduce the NHS. It would be highly undemocratic for people to vote for Brexit on the basis that extra money would be spent on the NHS, and then to actually reduce spending on the NHS once the vote was returned.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2022 18:20:15 GMT
What are you dribbling on about now?... I'm referring to your signature. You seem to wish to reduce the NHS. It would be highly undemocratic for people to vote for Brexit on the basis that extra money would be spent on the NHS, and then to actually reduce spending on the NHS once the vote was returned. Not at all - I dont wish to reduce the NHS, I wish to scrap it completely and replace it with a health system fit for the 21st century. What this has to do with switzerland is anyones guess..
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