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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 5, 2022 8:32:46 GMT
....and Switzerland is NOT in the EU - and doesn't want to be in the EU. I mention this because I think the history of Switzerland's interaction with the EU is quite instructive - especially for the British. There are a lot of parallels and the EUphiles on this forum don't seem to know much about the EU or its history. It's always a good idea to have studied history - especially as the EU is in the process of bankrupting its members.
The Swiss govt had wanted to join the EU for a long time (and still does). Switzerland has land borders with many EU countries and is actually part of Schengen (reluctantly). So in 1992 it had a referendum on whether to join the EEA (basically the EU-lite, with no membership of the CAP or CFP). The referendum was an education in itself, as it was a bit like our Brexit referendum, with the Swiss govt mounting a huge campaign to join the EEA and the smaller "No" campaign being expected to lose. The lies that the govt campaign told followed almost exactly those of our own govt's campaign - i.e. a fear campaign saying that Switzerland would lose all their trade with the EU and they'd all be poorer.
However, against all expectations the "No" campaign won a narrow victory by 50.3% to 49.7% and remained out of the EU. And 30 years later Switzerland is the richest nation per capita in Europe and has more trading partners than the EU has (it's easier for one country to agree trade deals than for a big trade protection zone like the EU. For obvious reasons). In short all of the predictions that the govt made in their campaign have proved wrong. Of course the Swiss govt still wants to join the EU but the polls show that the people would vote by a massive margin not to join (over 90%).
It's a strange conundrum that the governments of countries always seem to want to join the EU but the people do NOT. I have no idea why this is. Most (75%) of our MPs wanted to remain in the EU and would like to rejoin but the popular vote was not there as the referendum showed. The only reason the UK joined the Common Market is because it was tricked into it by the govt lies that it was simply a trading agreement. Nobody ever voted to give away control of their own country - and never will.
That's why there won't be another referendum - they would just lose again. The danger now is that a Left wing govt will take the country back into the EU by stealth. What Labour (or a labour/LibDem/SNP coalition) would do is say that they're going to rejoin the Single Market and/or Customs Union and try to claim that it was simply to smooth trade - but of course it would mean that we're effectively back in the EU and we would have lost control. Again. We would have hitched ourselves again to a doomed union that is fatally flawed and heading for the buffers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 11:25:46 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong; but Switzerland is part of the EU Single Market -- FoM and all.
The Swiss model was once mooted as a possible model the UK could adopt once out of the EU. But, I believe, the FoM part of that model was a non-starter.
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 5, 2022 21:13:37 GMT
Yea if you want to compair Switzerland it has a immigrant population of 27%
Maybe thats why its the richest country in Europe.
And im sure you being a Brexiteer would shudder at such huge immigration population
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 5, 2022 23:03:00 GMT
And in 2021 Switzerland pulled out of trade negotiations with the EU who didn't like the flexibility the Swiss had with their bilateral agreements; the Swiss wouldn't accept the imposition of an 'overarching framework' and therefore weren't brought to heel.
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 6, 2022 3:33:15 GMT
Switzerland will never be a member state of the EU, never in a million years. Their system of direct democracy in which the people have the power, frightens the unelected eurocrats in Brussels to death.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 6, 2022 7:32:04 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong; but Switzerland is part of the EU Single Market -- FoM and all. The Swiss model was once mooted as a possible model the UK could adopt once out of the EU. But, I believe, the FoM part of that model was a non-starter. This is the problem with the EUphiles - They don't understand the facts. Switzerland is NOT part of the Single Market. The referendum of the EEA was rejected because the Swiss didn't want to be in the SM. They trade with the EU via bilateral agreements - over 100 of them for various trade sectors and products. You don't need that if you're in the SM. They're also not subject to Free Movement. They're in Schengen but they're regretting it because it's spoiling their nice clean country. But FoM is not allowed. People from EU member countries can not turn up and live in Switzerland. They need a residence permit of which there are a limited number. The EU don't like it of course and have threatened retaliation but I don't think that they've yet managed to impose FoM on Switzerland. You're right that the Swiss model was a possible model for the UK but the EU don't like the model and most of our MPs don't like the model because they believe it restricts trade. If you remember Parliament voted through a law that we couldn't leave without a free trade deal - the "Surrender Act" I believe it was called. This is one of the things that we got badly wrong with Brexit. We've still got a blanket free trade deal with the EU which is VERY dangerous to our businesses. It should have been bilateral deals. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 6, 2022 7:34:57 GMT
Yea if you want to compair Switzerland it has a immigrant population of 27% Maybe thats why its the richest country in Europe. And im sure you being a Brexiteer would shudder at such huge immigration population Please stop googling irrelevant statistics TTL3. Google is a dangerous tool in the hands of people who don't understand anything. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 6, 2022 7:50:19 GMT
Haha stepplewolf what a brilliant answer.
To my very relevant point
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Post by Dubdrifter on Nov 6, 2022 8:21:43 GMT
....and Switzerland is NOT in the EU - and doesn't want to be in the EU. I mention this because I think the history of Switzerland's interaction with the EU is quite instructive - especially for the British. 1) There are a lot of parallels and the EUphiles on this forum don't seem to know much about the EU or its history. It's always a good idea to have studied history - especially as the EU is in the process of bankrupting its members. ; The Swiss govt had wanted to join the EU for a long time (and still does). Switzerland has land borders with many EU countries and is actually part of Schengen (reluctantly). So in 1992 it had a referendum on whether to join the EEA (basically the EU-lite, with no membership of the CAP or CFP). The referendum was an education in itself, as it was a bit like our Brexit referendum, with the Swiss govt mounting a huge campaign to join the EEA and the smaller "No" campaign being expected to lose. 2) The lies that the govt campaign told followed almost exactly those of our own govt's campaign - i.e. a fear campaign saying that Switzerland would lose all their trade with the EU and they'd all be poorer.However, against all expectations 3) the "No" campaign won a narrow victory by 50.3% to 49.7% and remained out of the EU. And 30 years later Switzerland is the richest nation per capita in Europe and has more trading partners than the EU has (it's easier for one country to agree trade deals than for a big trade protection zone like the EU. For obvious reasons). In short all of the predictions that the govt made in their campaign have proved wrong. Of course the Swiss govt still wants to join the EU but the polls show that the people would vote by a massive margin not to join (over 90%). It's a strange conundrum that the governments of countries always seem to want to join the EU but the people do NOT. I have no idea why this is. Most (75%) of our MPs wanted to remain in the EU and would like to rejoin but the popular vote was not there as the referendum showed. 4) The only reason the UK joined the Common Market is because it was tricked into it by the govt lies that it was simply a trading agreement. Nobody ever voted to give away control of their own country - and never will.That's why there won't be another referendum - they would just lose again. The danger now is that a Left wing govt will take the country back into the EU by stealth. What Labour (or a labour/LibDem/SNP coalition) would do is say that they're going to rejoin the Single Market and/or Customs Union and try to claim that it was simply to smooth trade - but of course it would mean that we're effectively back in the EU and we would have lost control. Again. We would have hitched ourselves again to a doomed union that is fatally flawed and heading for the buffers. Being a total Anglophile with a Swiss mother … I’ve visited Switzerland on and off since my childhood … and noticed the injection of foreigners of all income brackets bullying their Agendas hasn’t helped the smooth running and efficiency the Swiss were once famed for. They’ve corrupted the ‘brand’ to the degree even “Swiss Made” watches are now engineered and made in China. An interesting summary, Steppenwolf … and a few details that had slipped off my radar. Commenting on a few points … 1) Worth mentioning in that EU history a little known fact … the Common Market Trading Agreement was always a stepping stone to secretly taking away Sovereignty and flooding Europe with immigrants to destroy nationalism. The EU Concept was born out of the Kalergi Plan proposed by a Jewish elite backed by bankers .. to prevent Europe spawning future Dictatorships with fascist ideologies. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were defeated by a UK initiative that created Israel … which has since gone on to ironically develop into a very powerful bullying sectarian religion now controlling the EU and the World banking system and Media … now exercising basically a similar eugenic programme the Nazis were engineering … but affecting the bloodstock and unity of the indigenous peoples of Europe that ironically fought and died to save them from the Holocaust. Not a nice way to say ‘thank you’ to European freedom fighters … or Britain either … that through Churchill inspired their recovery from a terrible genocide! 2) We did lose a lot of trade and were made infinitely poorer … but through political incompetence and sabotage … internal and external … by Media and Globalists turning what should have been a swift 6 month efficient Brexit Transition … into a 6+ year nightmare …involving many changes of back-stabbing Administrations and a damaging Plandemic thrown in to scupper both Trump and Brexit. None of that disruption and acute defunding of this Nation and America/Europe happened by chance. … and Rishi Sunak was at the centre of that ACUTE defunding programme … no wonder Klaus Schwab loves him! Seems benign here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Schwab… another view! www.gardenstatefamilies.org/post/worldview-klaus-schwab-the-most-dangerous-man-in-the-worldNote the following comment from the above piece: “ The biggest problem with Schwab is he went from school to university directly into teaching. He has always existed within the sanctuary of academia, comfortably isolated from the realities faced by average people. He has spent basically his whole life in Switzerland, a very safe and tranquil place, he doesn't know what it's like to live in a high crime area, what it's like to be broke, what it's like to be downsized and have to change careers. He has a lot of book knowledge but no personal experience, except in terms of being a professor and sitting on boards and stuff like that. He's never run a business, never made things, never fixed things, never served customers. He was at the same university in Geneva from 1971 to 2003. People like that are usually a little nuts because for all the things they think they know, they're deeply and fundamentally out of touch with reality, and anything they say should be taken with a very generous grain of salt. You definitely don't want to put someone like that in charge of anything that has to function in the real world, because he'll screw it up 100% of the time.” This sums up many big thinkers who through WEF want to Rule the World. They pretend to respect individuality and diversity … but just highjack it to deliver a conformist agenda. 3) A much narrower margin than Brexit … yet they didn’t ‘bitch’ about the result as much as Bremoaners … and likely just got on with building new trading partnerships to justify the decision. …. What did UK Management do? … besides selling us out to the highest bidder?🤬 Switzerland would be much much richer today if the EU Dictatorship hadn’t attacked their Banking System after this “No” VOTE … Strangely forcing the Swiss Banking System to reveal the identities and details of account holders … those storing their money from the clutches of rapacious governments … or using Swiss banks to store their gold reserves and tax dodging revenues. This forced disclosure sent many investors into panic mode to shift their assets out of Switzerland and into other more secretive tax-dodging territories like Panama and the Caribbean. I guess Swiss gold reserves plummeted and the pro-EU Banking Lobby had their REVENGE … and shafted the people of their own Country. (That’s the nature of the International Banking Beast … no National loyalty … very 666.👹☠️) 4)The Globalist-run MSM ensures every Nation hands over Sovereignty and Control to Foreigners and sectarian religious cartels rolling out bullying agendas that impoverish us … true Democracy and representation is all but dead because of who controls our Press and draconian CENSORSHIP. Switzerland will never be a member state of the EU, never in a million years. Their system of direct democracy in which the people have the power, frightens the unelected eurocrats in Brussels to death. Nothing frightens those manipulating the EU … the Klaus Scwarbs of this Planet have nearly everything fully under their control. … control the Press and you control the minds of the People … and you can spin any LIE you like … even 9/11. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 9:49:35 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong; but Switzerland is part of the EU Single Market -- FoM and all. The Swiss model was once mooted as a possible model the UK could adopt once out of the EU. But, I believe, the FoM part of that model was a non-starter. This is the problem with the EUphiles - They don't understand the facts. Switzerland is NOT part of the Single Market. The referendum of the EEA was rejected because the Swiss didn't want to be in the SM. They trade with the EU via bilateral agreements - over 100 of them for various trade sectors and products. You don't need that if you're in the SM. They're also not subject to Free Movement. They're in Schengen but they're regretting it because it's spoiling their nice clean country. But FoM is not allowed. People from EU member countries can not turn up and live in Switzerland. They need a residence permit of which there are a limited number. The EU don't like it of course and have threatened retaliation but I don't think that they've yet managed to impose FoM on Switzerland. You're right that the Swiss model was a possible model for the UK but the EU don't like the model and most of our MPs don't like the model because they believe it restricts trade. If you remember Parliament voted through a law that we couldn't leave without a free trade deal - the "Surrender Act" I believe it was called. This is one of the things that we got badly wrong with Brexit. We've still got a blanket free trade deal with the EU which is VERY dangerous to our businesses. It should have been bilateral deals. The reality is, a qualified or limited participation in the EU Single Market does not disqualify or negate that participation. It is pointless to reframe reality. Switzerland is, in principle and in practice, a part of the EU SM. Whether the Swiss trade within it fully, selectively or in a limited way or as an EU member or via bilateral agreements is a different discussion. The fact remaints that Switzerland contributes financially to the EU. It applies EU laws. It participates in FoM. The Swiss even voted to keep freedom of movement a couple of years or so ago. All these in exchange for participation in the Single Market. So, what disqualifies Switzerland from being part of the EU Single Market? None. I agree with you that we should have gone for the Swiss model. And it seemed that the EU was receptive to such an arrangement. But BJ & Co and their sov'rentee-chasing, freedom-fighting, control freak supporters insisted that it's either their way, the harder way or the highway. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 6, 2022 9:58:45 GMT
Switzerland has bilateral agreements it isn't in the EEA agreement, isn't a member of the Single Market or the Customs Union.
It's like us, except that it is also in Schengen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 10:50:27 GMT
Switzerland has bilateral agreements it isn't in the EEA agreement, isn't a member of the Single Market or the Customs Union. It's like us, except that it is also in Schengen. duplicate |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 10:53:37 GMT
Switzerland has bilateral agreements it isn't in the EEA agreement, isn't a member of the Single Market or the Customs Union. It's like us, except that it is also in Schengen. A country does not have to be a member-country of the EU to join their Single Market. Switzerland joined the Single Market by virtue of those bilateral agreements. Those bilateral agreements were created specifically so that Switzerland could join the Single Market -- albeit bespoke and selectively. Bilateral agreements notwithstanding, the Swiss give the EU money. They apply EU laws. They are part of FoM. Is there anything that Switzerland is missing for it not to be part of the EU Single Market? None. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 6, 2022 11:15:18 GMT
And in 2021 Switzerland pulled out of trade negotiations with the EU who didn't like the flexibility the Swiss had with their bilateral agreements; the Swiss wouldn't accept the imposition of an 'overarching framework' and therefore weren't brought to heel. A primary bone of contention was the EU's Citizen's Rights Directive 2004. The EU has an annoying habit of standing up for the citizens of its member states. Hence, it wouldn't agree a deal with the UK until Northern Ireland had been sorted out and the rights of EU migrants in the UK were fixed. The Swiss were prepared to allow FOM but refused to contemplate giving EU migrants the full protections of the Citizen's Rights Directive. The EU wasn't prepared to budge when it came to EU migrants' rights. The right see everything as being about profit. The left and centre look at the bigger human picture. As long as the Swiss refuse to recognise all the rights of EU migrants, they won't reach agreement with the EU, whether they want to or not. And given that 42% of their exports are to the EU, it is more probable than not they will want to at some point. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 6, 2022 14:12:38 GMT
This is the problem with the EUphiles - They don't understand the facts. The reality is, a qualified or limited participation in the EU Single Market does not disqualify or negate that participation. It is pointless to reframe reality. Switzerland is, in principle and in practice, a part of the EU SM. Whether the Swiss trade within it fully, selectively or in a limited way or as an EU member or via bilateral agreements is a different discussion. The fact remaints that Switzerland contributes financially to the EU. It applies EU laws. It participates in FoM. The Swiss even voted to keep freedom of movement a couple of years or so ago. All these in exchange for participation in the Single Market. So, what disqualifies Switzerland from being part of the EU Single Market? None. I agree with you that we should have gone for the Swiss model. And it seemed that the EU was receptive to such an arrangement. But BJ & Co and their sov'rentee-chasing, freedom-fighting, control freak supporters insisted that it's either their way, the harder way or the highway. You're willfully ignorant gnome. You will never understand anything because you don't even begin to understand the basics. Switzerland is NOT in the Single Market. That's a fact. It accepts free trade only on certain goods. And it doesn't have to abide by the various "pillars" of EU membership that come with the SIngle Market. And it hasn't signed up to EU laws. It has voluntarily agreed to accept alignment with EU rules on the products they trade, which is entirely reasonable. And it doesn't participate in FoM because people who want to live in Switzerland need residence permits. And it pays a very limited amount to the EU - about £150 million pa, rather than the £18 billion we were paying (we paid over 100 times more). As for the nonsense - "BJ & Co and their sov'rentee-chasing, freedom-fighting, control freak supporters insisted that it's either their way, the harder way or the highway" - did you ever try follow what was going on in the referendum. Or did you get your garbled idea from the BBC and the Guardian. The Switzerland deal was never on the table for the UK. And the EU demanded that the UK sign a withdrawal agreement before they would negotiate trade deals. Since the MPs (of all sides) were not willing to agree to any deal that didn't involve free trade (the Surrender Act) it makes it slightly difficult to opt for the bilateral deal as it would mean leaving without free trade. Like I said, I always find that people who support the EU almost always know SFA about it. |
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