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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 24, 2023 7:56:28 GMT
Blackiswhite says " Zany is right.  " Zany is never right. The mistake he's making with his figures is that he's "thinking" that electricity is free. Unfortunately the electricity required to take a car a given distance costs roughly the same now as petrol does. It's just that he gets as confused with the figures here as he does with the science of climate change. Let's work it out: His car has a 14 kWh battery that does (according to the road tests) about 30 miles (on electric power alone). This is 2.1 miles per kWh - which is about average for an electric car. In fact it's slightly better than average - big SUVs tend to do about 2 miles/kWh and small cars like a Mini do about 3 miles/kWh. Given that the average price of a kWh (from a domestic supply) is 34p, this means it costs about 16p/mile on electric power. Of course if you charge up from a public charger it would cost a lot more. Running on diesel power alone it does about 39mpg (from Parkers). If diesel costs about £1.60 a gallon this means it costs about 18p/mile. So it's about the same. So basically the car costs about the same to run if you run it diesel or electric power, how does it suddenly manage to do a much higher mpg when both are used together? It's utter nonsense. Actually I've just looked at the Parkers figures for this car and they say that the diesel only version does 42mpg and the hybrid does 39mpg. Of course Kia claim the hybrid does 170mpg on the WLTP test but that seems to be if you charge the car up (for free) before the test and then just measure the amount of diesel used. The real world figures show that the hybrid car is less economical than the straight diesel car - which is only logical because the diesel version is lighter and has slightly less power. I'm afraid zany has got confused - just as he has with climate change. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 24, 2023 8:43:11 GMT
You can’t claim a car is using x amount per gallon if it’s using a different source for energy .
You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG.
It’s a lie and a scam and the eco worriers are trying to it pass it off as fact .
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 9:23:08 GMT
You can’t claim a car is using x amount per gallon if it’s using a different source for energy . You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG. It’s a lie and a scam and the eco worriers are trying to it pass it off as fact . I have never claimed electricity is free, that is a lie Steppen keeps repeating. On this thread I have costed it. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/4457/charging-ev-more-expensive?page=5As for electric costs Octopus energy charge 7.5p a kWh at night. So 14.8kw battery costs £1.11 to fully charge. Only you never fully charge them you only put in about 11kw, so that's 82.5p to get 38 miles of travel. Where are you getting petrol at a pound a gallon? You shouldn't assume people who back up your views are truthful. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 24, 2023 11:38:27 GMT
You can’t claim a car is using x amount per gallon if it’s using a different source for energy . You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG. It’s a lie and a scam and the eco worriers are trying to it pass it off as fact . I have never claimed electricity is free, that is a lie Steppen keeps repeating. On this thread I have costed it. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/4457/charging-ev-more-expensive?page=5As for electric costs Octopus energy charge 7.5p a kWh at night. So 14.8kw battery costs £1.11 to fully charge. Only you never fully charge them you only put in about 11kw, so that's 82.5p to get 38 miles of travel. Where are you getting petrol at a pound a gallon? You shouldn't assume people who back up your views are truthful. I never said you claimed electricity is free . Read the post . Claiming a petrol MPG for a car that uses another energy source is dishonest. Its propaganda used by the Doom Goblin followers . |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 11:59:13 GMT
I have never claimed electricity is free, that is a lie Steppen keeps repeating. On this thread I have costed it. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/4457/charging-ev-more-expensive?page=5As for electric costs Octopus energy charge 7.5p a kWh at night. So 14.8kw battery costs £1.11 to fully charge. Only you never fully charge them you only put in about 11kw, so that's 82.5p to get 38 miles of travel. Where are you getting petrol at a pound a gallon? You shouldn't assume people who back up your views are truthful. I never said you claimed electricity is free . Read the post . Claiming a petrol MPG for a car that uses another energy source is dishonest. Its propaganda used by the Doom Goblin followers . If you weren't claiming I said it was free, then what did you mean by: "You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG." People on here really need to step up to what they have said and defend it or retract. Filling your car with petrol costs approx £6.00 per 30 miles Charging my car over night costs approx £0.80 per 30 miles. No infinity involved but considerably cheaper. Trying to compare the most expensive and unlikely charging methods with the cheapest petrol is dishonest. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 24, 2023 11:59:15 GMT
A better metric would be miles driven per £ spent on energy (electricity and petrol).
Using Zany's figures that would appear to 46 miles per £ of electricity. In petrol only mode I'd imagine a large and heavy vehicle like his would struggle to achieve much over 35 mpg. At (say) £6 per gallon he'd be able to drive around 6 miles on a poundsworth of petrol.
So the answer lies in the the mix of driving on one fuel or the other.
Do you know what that is Zany?
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Post by Bentley on Oct 24, 2023 12:04:50 GMT
I never said you claimed electricity is free . Read the post . Claiming a petrol MPG for a car that uses another energy source is dishonest. Its propaganda used by the Doom Goblin followers . If you weren't claiming I said it was free, then what did you mean by: "You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG." People on here really need to step up to what they have said and defend it or retract. Filling your car with petrol costs approx £6.00 per 30 miles Charging my car over night costs approx £0.80 per 30 miles. No infinity involved but considerably cheaper. Trying to compare the most expensive and unlikely charging methods with the cheapest petrol is dishonest. Because if you claim that a car that has run say 50 miles on the energy from a battery plus a sip of petrol has a high MPG then you are making a dishonest statement …just as you would if you claimed that an EV has an infinite Mpg. If you are not using petrol then you can’t claim an MPG. It bleeding obvious to anyone . |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 24, 2023 12:13:21 GMT
If Zany drives a typical 10,000 miles p.a. in car which gets 35 mpg then his annual fuel cost will be around £1,700.
If he drives the same mileage in a hybrid car the cost is likely to be significantly less (around a sixth of that) but he'd need to charge the battery perhaps every other day.
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 12:16:31 GMT
A better metric would be miles driven per £ spent on energy (electricity and petrol). Using Zany's figures that would appear to 46 miles per £ of electricity. In petrol only mode I'd imagine a large and heavy vehicle like his would struggle to achieve much over 35 mpg. At (say) £6 per gallon he'd be able to drive around 6 miles on a poundsworth of petrol. So the answer lies in the the mix of driving on one fuel or the other. Do you know what that is Zany? I could give a rough calculation on my own car. On a long journey (150 + miles with a full starting charge) I get about 56 mpg. Its impossible to say that's 38 miles on electric and 112 on fuel as the vehicle is cleverer than that. If I put my destination in the Sat Nav (recommended even if you know where you are going, because your car doesn't) Then: The car will use battery at low speeds Battery and engine combined for acceleration Petrol for other driving And when cruising at 75 on a motorway, I also see the petrol engine topping up the battery. This combination gives the 56mpg. On short journeys Its pure electricity, maybe using a tiny amount of petrol to warm the engine in case you suddenly need it for heavy acceleration. Roughly speaking to achieve an average of 168mpg overall I must be doing about 4 miles on pure battery for every mile of combined I think the average return car journey length in the UK is 17 miles? Work and back, town and back, pick up the kids from school etc. I'm sure the deniers all know someone who daily drives from lands end to John of Groats via Istanbul, but that's not the norm. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 12:18:53 GMT
If you weren't claiming I said it was free, then what did you mean by: "You might as well say EVs use infinite MPG." People on here really need to step up to what they have said and defend it or retract. Filling your car with petrol costs approx £6.00 per 30 miles Charging my car over night costs approx £0.80 per 30 miles. No infinity involved but considerably cheaper. Trying to compare the most expensive and unlikely charging methods with the cheapest petrol is dishonest. Because if you claim that a car that has run say 50 miles on the energy from a battery plus a sip of petrol has a high MPG then you are making a dishonest statement …just as you would if you claimed that an EV has an infinite Mpg. If you are not using petrol then you can’t claim an MPG. It bleeding obvious to anyone . A high MPG equivalent. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 12:24:08 GMT
If Zany drives a typical 10,000 miles p.a. in car which gets 35 mpg then his annual fuel cost will be around £1,700. If he drives the same mileage in a hybrid car the cost is likely to be significantly less (around a sixth of that) but he'd need to charge the battery perhaps every other day. The equivalent in my hybrid for 10,000 miles would be £360.00 in petrol plus about £150.00 in electricity. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 24, 2023 12:24:21 GMT
Because if you claim that a car that has run say 50 miles on the energy from a battery plus a sip of petrol has a high MPG then you are making a dishonest statement …just as you would if you claimed that an EV has an infinite Mpg. If you are not using petrol then you can’t claim an MPG. It bleeding obvious to anyone . A high MPG equivalent. Nope . It’s a lie . If you are using another energy source you cannot claim an MPG. According to your perverse logic my gas boiler produces a huge amount of heat from very little electricity. Far more than a heat pump. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 24, 2023 12:25:39 GMT
"On a long journey (150 + miles with a full starting charge) I get about 56 mpg. Its impossible to say that's 38 miles on electric and 112 on fuel as the vehicle is cleverer than that. "
Can't you determine how much petrol has been used for that 150 mile journey and how electricity?
Or better yet do a full tank to full tank calculation, also keeping note of how many kWh you have consumed over that period.
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2023 12:28:05 GMT
Nope . It’s a lie . If you are using another energy source you cannot claim an MPG. According to your perverse logic my gas boiler produces a huge amount of heat from very little electricity. Far more than a heat pump. More word games. So not interested. From all the other posts on here it seems only you didn't understand that it meant equivalent. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 24, 2023 12:30:57 GMT
If Zany drives a typical 10,000 miles p.a. in car which gets 35 mpg then his annual fuel cost will be around £1,700. If he drives the same mileage in a hybrid car the cost is likely to be significantly less (around a sixth of that) but he'd need to charge the battery perhaps every other day. The equivalent in my hybrid for 10,000 miles would be £360.00 in petrol plus about £150.00 in electricity. Given what you've told us about your driving habits that seems credible. £150 of electricity means you would be driving around 60% of the time on the battery, around 6000 miles annually. |
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