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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 21, 2023 7:29:13 GMT
So why didn't you buy a pure EV? If you're using so little petrol there's very little point in: 1) Having paid a big premium to buy a hybrid 2) Carrying around the extra weight of a gearbox and a petrol engine 3) paying extra maintenance costs because you have 2 methods of propulsion You have opted for the most inefficient form of transport that there is. When you actually use the petrol that you're carrying around in your tank it means your battery is flat - so the software diverts energy to charge the battery. This is staggeringly inefficient. Did you ever think about this? If you rarely use the petrol in your tank you should have either bought a pure EV or - if you need a car that can actually drive a reasonable distance - you should have got a straight petrol car. Don't get me wrong. I like hybrids as a technology but their only sensible use is in supercars. Nearly all the people who buy hybrids to go shopping or commute short distances are better off with the petrol version of whatever hybrid they bought because they're cheaper and more efficient. BTW If you actually do have problems with petrol "going off" you can use Aspen. I use that in my classic cars because it lasts for years and it's also pretty high quality stuff. It's Mrs's car, and four years ago she wasn't certain about full EV as she/we sometimes go on longer trips and there were plenty of negative stories about charging facilities. As it's turned out, she uses battery power more often than petrol, home charging hasn't noticeably raised our electricity bill, and longer motorway/autoroute journeys don't seem more costly than petrol ICE. Round here, hybrids currently enjoy the same reduced parking charges as full EVs.
The fact is that running a car on electricity is now no cheaper than running an ICE car on petrol. But running any car with extra weight causes it use significantly more power - and a hybrid car is about 350kgms heavier than an equivalent petrol car so the running costs of a hybrid WILL be higher than pure ICE car. Your hybrid car is more costly to run than an equivalent ICE car would be and generates more CO2. So it's pointless. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 21, 2023 7:54:40 GMT
It's Mrs's car, and four years ago she wasn't certain about full EV as she/we sometimes go on longer trips and there were plenty of negative stories about charging facilities. As it's turned out, she uses battery power more often than petrol, home charging hasn't noticeably raised our electricity bill, and longer motorway/autoroute journeys don't seem more costly than petrol ICE. Round here, hybrids currently enjoy the same reduced parking charges as full EVs.
I don't see that buying petrol additives would reduce costs over adding E10 fuel when needed, even increased moisture absorption isn't a problem...
I bought my hybrid because at the time there was a 14 month wait for a full electric. But I'm so pleased with it. Like your Mrs I don't use petrol most days and when I do a long journey on both I get about 56mpg in a big 7 seater SUV. My average is 167mpg. I charge mine from a 13amp socket to, takes about 4.5 hours from zero to full. Oh and the battery doesn't weigh tons, it weighs 44kg about a 12 year old. Has your Mrs seen these supposed massive hikes in insurance? I don't know what pure EV had a 14 month waiting list, but was it during the chip shortage? All cars had big waiting lists (except some Japanese cars). But you do seem to have a big problem with logic, zanygame. Quoting 167mpg average mileage when you do most of your driving on electric power is nonsensical. Presumably you are aware that you're also paying about the same to buy electricity as buy petrol (mile for mile) - probably more now. If the battery actually does weigh 44kgms it must be very low capacity (less than 10kWh). I know most hybrids have tiny ranges (max 30 miles) but even that requires a 15-20 kWh battery. The weight penalty of having the electric propulsion in a hybrid is generally about 350kgms - you have to have the motor, battery and all the electrical components to manage it. This significantly impacts efficiency. If you compare a hybrid to a similar ICE car the ICE car will have better mpg. It's also cheaper to buy and, over its lifetime, will almost certainly emit less CO2. On the subject of insurance the high prices for cars with Li-ion batteries is fairly recent. John Lewis no longer insures them, and that occurred a few weeks ago. There was also a case in the paper a few days ago where a guy who last year paid £450 to insure a Mini electric got a renewal quote of £850. The problem is that even minor accidents potentially write off the car because they can't take any chances with battery damage. The location of the battery (low down on the floor pan) means that it's very vulnerable to damage - even potholes can damage it. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 21, 2023 13:51:39 GMT
When did you suddenly start caring about Africans Red? Does this cover any other slave labour conditions apart from Lithium? Were you supporting the NGO's in the DMC when they were trying to stop poor families selling their children into the slave trade to dig Copper etc? Did you think the slave mines only started with EV's? I mean, I like this new Red. And we could talk a lot about fair trade and suppressed peoples. What we could do to help Africa and maybe even stop the economic migrants. Let me know and I'll start a thread. (Only it can't be about just stopping them coming here and how its all the EU's fault.) Since you enter into whataboutery rather than comment on child labour in the production of EV's I have to assume you approve, or at least think it's not a problem. Out of sight out of mind eh. Oh and child labour in the production of rare earth minerals is rife in South America as well as Africa, although it must be said, you wont see Just Stop Oil demonstrating about it. |
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Post by patman post on Oct 21, 2023 13:54:52 GMT
It's Mrs's car, and four years ago she wasn't certain about full EV as she/we sometimes go on longer trips and there were plenty of negative stories about charging facilities. As it's turned out, she uses battery power more often than petrol, home charging hasn't noticeably raised our electricity bill, and longer motorway/autoroute journeys don't seem more costly than petrol ICE. Round here, hybrids currently enjoy the same reduced parking charges as full EVs.
The fact is that running a car on electricity is now no cheaper than running an ICE car on petrol. But running any car with extra weight causes it use significantly more power - and a hybrid car is about 350kgms heavier than an equivalent petrol car so the running costs of a hybrid WILL be higher than pure ICE car. Your hybrid car is more costly to run than an equivalent ICE car would be and generates more CO2. So it's pointless. Supposing all or any of that to be accurate, none of it has noticeably negatively impacted our use of the vehicle.
I know for a fact that Mrs P's Hybrid Outlander has faster acceleration than the equivalent ICE Outlander model. I guess the absence of constantly driven variable transmission and drive shaft helps with that. The only compromise that's had a minor effect is the lack of two extra rear seats the ICE Outlander offers
As I recall, insurance is about £750 for two drivers and London on-street parking and including a few extras...
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Post by Bentley on Oct 21, 2023 16:17:01 GMT
£750?😳
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 7:02:38 GMT
I bought my hybrid because at the time there was a 14 month wait for a full electric. But I'm so pleased with it. Like your Mrs I don't use petrol most days and when I do a long journey on both I get about 56mpg in a big 7 seater SUV. My average is 167mpg. I charge mine from a 13amp socket to, takes about 4.5 hours from zero to full. Oh and the battery doesn't weigh tons, it weighs 44kg about a 12 year old. Has your Mrs seen these supposed massive hikes in insurance? I don't know what pure EV had a 14 month waiting list, but was it during the chip shortage? All cars had big waiting lists (except some Japanese cars). But you do seem to have a big problem with logic, zanygame. Quoting 167mpg average mileage when you do most of your driving on electric power is nonsensical. Presumably you are aware that you're also paying about the same to buy electricity as buy petrol (mile for mile) - probably more now. If the battery actually does weigh 44kgms it must be very low capacity (less than 10kWh). I know most hybrids have tiny ranges (max 30 miles) but even that requires a 15-20 kWh battery. The weight penalty of having the electric propulsion in a hybrid is generally about 350kgms - you have to have the motor, battery and all the electrical components to manage it. This significantly impacts efficiency. If you compare a hybrid to a similar ICE car the ICE car will have better mpg. It's also cheaper to buy and, over its lifetime, will almost certainly emit less CO2. On the subject of insurance the high prices for cars with Li-ion batteries is fairly recent. John Lewis no longer insures them, and that occurred a few weeks ago. There was also a case in the paper a few days ago where a guy who last year paid £450 to insure a Mini electric got a renewal quote of £850. The problem is that even minor accidents potentially write off the car because they can't take any chances with battery damage. The location of the battery (low down on the floor pan) means that it's very vulnerable to damage - even potholes can damage it. The car I wanted was a Kia EV6 and the wait was 14 months.Though you could get one in 4 months if you didn't mind the colour or model. The weight of the battery for a Kia Sorrento hybrid is available online for you to check. The weight of the motor is offset by the fact it has a 1600cc engine instead of the usual 3ltr you need to shift such a bus. Yes I am aware that my 167mpg is mostly obtained from the battery, that is precisely the point. I won't bother to run the numbers for you again as you don't seem to be able to take them in. But I can tell you that no large SUV I have ever owned has come close to 55mpg. And that my electric gallon costs miles less than your petrol one. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 7:09:11 GMT
When did you suddenly start caring about Africans Red? Does this cover any other slave labour conditions apart from Lithium? Were you supporting the NGO's in the DMC when they were trying to stop poor families selling their children into the slave trade to dig Copper etc? Did you think the slave mines only started with EV's? I mean, I like this new Red. And we could talk a lot about fair trade and suppressed peoples. What we could do to help Africa and maybe even stop the economic migrants. Let me know and I'll start a thread. (Only it can't be about just stopping them coming here and how its all the EU's fault.) Since you enter into whataboutery rather than comment on child labour in the production of EV's I have to assume you approve, or at least think it's not a problem. Out of sight out of mind eh. Oh and child labour in the production of rare earth minerals is rife in South America as well as Africa, although it must be said, you wont see Just Stop Oil demonstrating about it. It's not whataboutery Red, it's education. And yes I do care, really care. I support an NGO that is trying to solve these issues which are not about Virtue signallers wanting electric cars, but about poverty and corruption in the DMC. So before you cast nasturtiums perhaps you should put your hand in your own pocket and help instead of advocating we remove the only income these families can get. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 22, 2023 12:26:28 GMT
I don't know what pure EV had a 14 month waiting list, but was it during the chip shortage? All cars had big waiting lists (except some Japanese cars). But you do seem to have a big problem with logic, zanygame. Quoting 167mpg average mileage when you do most of your driving on electric power is nonsensical. Presumably you are aware that you're also paying about the same to buy electricity as buy petrol (mile for mile) - probably more now. If the battery actually does weigh 44kgms it must be very low capacity (less than 10kWh). I know most hybrids have tiny ranges (max 30 miles) but even that requires a 15-20 kWh battery. The weight penalty of having the electric propulsion in a hybrid is generally about 350kgms - you have to have the motor, battery and all the electrical components to manage it. This significantly impacts efficiency. If you compare a hybrid to a similar ICE car the ICE car will have better mpg. It's also cheaper to buy and, over its lifetime, will almost certainly emit less CO2. On the subject of insurance the high prices for cars with Li-ion batteries is fairly recent. John Lewis no longer insures them, and that occurred a few weeks ago. There was also a case in the paper a few days ago where a guy who last year paid £450 to insure a Mini electric got a renewal quote of £850. The problem is that even minor accidents potentially write off the car because they can't take any chances with battery damage. The location of the battery (low down on the floor pan) means that it's very vulnerable to damage - even potholes can damage it. The car I wanted was a Kia EV6 and the wait was 14 months.Though you could get one in 4 months if you didn't mind the colour or model. The weight of the battery for a Kia Sorrento hybrid is available online for you to check. The weight of the motor is offset by the fact it has a 1600cc engine instead of the usual 3ltr you need to shift such a bus. Yes I am aware that my 167mpg is mostly obtained from the battery, that is precisely the point. I won't bother to run the numbers for you again as you don't seem to be able to take them in. But I can tell you that no large SUV I have ever owned has come close to 55mpg. And that my electric gallon costs miles less than your petrol one. You don't need a 3 litre engine to power heavy cars any more - a 2 litre turbo is more than enough nowadays for even the fastest cars. The Kia Sorrento has a 150kgm battery according to their data and it's a tiny 14kWh. And the independent figures for mpg are more like 35mpg (not 55). And electric energy now costs more than petrol energy (with a modern petrol energy). So what you said was all bollocks. Let's try and make it simple for you. The basic facts are that, if you have a car and you want a certain level of performance you need a certain amount of power to achieve that. You can do that by using a petrol engine or by having a slightly less powerful petrol engine and an electric motor with a battery. There is NO case that I've ever seen where the hybrid option isn't considerably heavier (than petrol alone) and considerably more expensive. So it costs more to buy and more to run - and emits more CO2 in it's "lifetime". There is absolutely no reason to prefer the hybrid car to the petrol car except if you like the option of the instant torque of the electric motor. I can understand that but you should be aware that it's costing you money. And if you think you're "doing your bit" for the planet - you're wrong. These cars are the most inefficient ever made. Using a petrol engine to charge a battery - which is what they do unless you charge the battery before every trip and only run it on battery power - is insane. The reason that car manufacturers make hybrids is because EU regulations make it the only way that they can avoid huge fines. EU testing methods give them fictional mpg figures which can never be achieved. It's a pity that all the advances that car manufacturers have made over the years in efficiency have been wiped out by the stupid car buyers who buy very heavy and very un-aerodynamic "bricks" like the tank you have. And sticking a battery in them just makes them even heavier (2.5 tons) and more dangerous to the planet - and anyone near where you park it. You should be pretty ashamed of yourself. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 22, 2023 15:34:29 GMT
I wonder how keen on EVs the eco worriers would be if the raw materials for batteries were in Sussex , Surrey and Kent instead of a long way away where it a third world country?
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 16:52:26 GMT
The car I wanted was a Kia EV6 and the wait was 14 months.Though you could get one in 4 months if you didn't mind the colour or model. The weight of the battery for a Kia Sorrento hybrid is available online for you to check. The weight of the motor is offset by the fact it has a 1600cc engine instead of the usual 3ltr you need to shift such a bus. Yes I am aware that my 167mpg is mostly obtained from the battery, that is precisely the point. I won't bother to run the numbers for you again as you don't seem to be able to take them in. But I can tell you that no large SUV I have ever owned has come close to 55mpg. And that my electric gallon costs miles less than your petrol one. Not in a 7 seater SUV Apologies I got that number wrong, still its not tons is it. And you'll have noted it needs a smaller fuel tank because of the battery. Don't know how they come to those figures, presumably its if you don't charge the battery at all. I suppose if you're stupid enough to buy a plugin hybrid and not charge it you might get figures that low, I couldn't tell you because I'm not that stupid. Maybe if you are then its best you stay with petrol. Here's what's Parkers review says www.parkers.co.uk/kia/sorento/review/mpg-running-costs/The plug-in hybrid Kia Sorento’s on-paper fuel economy figures are the most impressive. Kia says it can return more than 170mpg on the WLTP combined cycle – but that figure assumes you have a full battery and that you’re making the most of the car’s 35-mile electric range. In our testing, which included a mixture of stop-start town and county driving, we averaged 80.2mpg before the battery pack was depleted. My actual dashboard below: ↓↓Having just done a 200 mile round trip to Louth having charged it before I left home, 200 miles without any further charge pulled it down a little bit.  So not bollox. As I own one and you talk out your backside. As for electric costs Octopus energy charge 7.5p a kWh at night. So 14.8kw battery costs £1.11 to fully charge. Only you never fully charge them you only put in about 11kw, so that's 82.5p to get 38 miles of travel. Where are you getting petrol at a pound a gallon? You really seem to enjoy making yourself look a tit. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 16:59:22 GMT
I wonder how keen on EVs the eco worriers would be if the raw materials for batteries were in Sussex , Surrey and Kent instead of a long way away where it a third world country? Or Copper or lead or ICE cars? Does not being an ECO warrior mean you don't have to give a shit about Africans? |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 22, 2023 17:06:04 GMT
I wonder how keen on EVs the eco worriers would be if the raw materials for batteries were in Sussex , Surrey and Kent instead of a long way away where it a third world country? Or Copper or lead or ICE cars? Does not being an ECO warrior mean you don't have to give a shit about Africans? Nothing like as toxic as minerals for EVs . Hiding behind Whataboutery is very telling. Eco worrier not warrior ffs . |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 17:14:25 GMT
Or Copper or lead or ICE cars? Does not being an ECO warrior mean you don't have to give a shit about Africans? Nothing like as toxic as minerals for EVs . Hiding behind Whataboutery is very telling. Eco worrier not warrior ffs . Go on. How is Lithium toxic to those digging up the ore (assuming they don't eat it. ) And Copper Sudden (acute) copper poisoning is rare. However, serious health problems from long-term exposure to copper can occur. Severe poisoning can cause liver failure and death. In poisonings from a long-term buildup of copper in the body, the outcome depends on how much damage there is to the body's organs. And ofcourse we all know about lead. Shame on you using DRC's human rights abuses to attack eco warriors when you couldn't really give a stuff. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 22, 2023 17:17:23 GMT
Nothing like as toxic as minerals for EVs . Hiding behind Whataboutery is very telling. Eco worrier not warrior ffs . Go on. How is Lithium toxic to those digging up the ore (assuming they don't eat it. ) And Copper Sudden (acute) copper poisoning is rare. However, serious health problems from long-term exposure to copper can occur. Severe poisoning can cause liver failure and death. In poisonings from a long-term buildup of copper in the body, the outcome depends on how much damage there is to the body's organs. And ofcourse we all know about lead. Shame on you using DRC's human rights abuses to attack eco warriors when you couldn't really give a stuff. Stop hiding from the question ‘ warrior’ lol. Heres another chance .. I wonder how keen on EVs the eco worriers would be if the raw materials for batteries were in Sussex , Surrey and Kent instead of a long way away where it a third world country? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 22, 2023 18:19:31 GMT
Go on. How is Lithium toxic to those digging up the ore (assuming they don't eat it. ) And Copper Sudden (acute) copper poisoning is rare. However, serious health problems from long-term exposure to copper can occur. Severe poisoning can cause liver failure and death. In poisonings from a long-term buildup of copper in the body, the outcome depends on how much damage there is to the body's organs. And ofcourse we all know about lead. Shame on you using DRC's human rights abuses to attack eco warriors when you couldn't really give a stuff. Stop hiding from the question ‘ warrior’ lol. Heres another chance .. I wonder how keen on EVs the eco worriers would be if the raw materials for batteries were in Sussex , Surrey and Kent instead of a long way away where it a third world country? Well I don't know any ECO warriors, but if you're asking me I'm fine with it. Good money for the country too. Are you happy to enslave Surrey children to dig it? |
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