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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 23:31:40 GMT
Because i refuse to play the blame game and take sides. I have been discussing this issue via social media for over 15 years. What you read and what you believe is your choice. I dont have to post content to please you. Your strawmanning doesnt help adult conversation. I dont know what media you pay attention to but there has been universal condemnation of Hamas, particularly among world political leaders. And FYI, i dont care what justification someone has for claiming someone else's land, including and foremost, religion. You dont see Christians stealing parts of the ME because someone wrote that Jesus walked for 40 days somewhere there. There is enough aggression of the subject without you starting more because i havent written something in support of your clear bias. I do have a sense of who the real victim has been in the last 50 years. But i am not prepared to weigh victimhood over the last 3000 years. Acknowledging faults on both sides is not playing the "blame game" or taking sides. False accusations like "Strawmanning" only allow you to continue to fool yourself, it is not debate. The media I watch is not influential upon me, I prefer actual research, not biased or public opinion. I have been debating the problem for over 20years. There has not been anything like the same level of condemnation of Hamas as there has been against Israel. It's good of you to at least acknowledge that you disagree with the Palestinian Muslim Arabs attempt to destroy Israel and to grab all of the Israeli land for themselves, and that it (there many attempts) was the wrong to do. I would just add that it heralded a bunch of unexpected consequences for the Arabs, i.e. it backfired. You asked 'Why the Jews chose Israel". The only one with a clear bias on this subject is yourself Exactly, over the last 50years, despite the repeated attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah? But I can understand that you condemn what the Right-Wing Israeli government that has inflicted no nonsense reprisals on the Arabs and have gone OTT at times. So in your mind all the aggression and violence that has led to this position doesn't count. If you do not understand that you have disclosed your absolute bias by that comment, then you have no place in this debate. Why not watch the video on the "Short trip through Jewish history" thread. It is a short trip. In The Mind Zone. I think you could do with a potted history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Yes there was a Jewish state - two in fact - in biblical times. But most of the Jews were dispersed all over the place by the Romans after some serious revolts against Roman rule. The Romans in Palestine were ultimately succeeded by the Byzantines, then the Arabs. Christian crusaders occupied parts of the area for a few centuries at the time of the crusades, but were eventually driven out. The Arabs were in turn driven out by the Ottoman Turks who ruled Palestine until the British kicked them out in 1917-18. Until the late 19th century, there had been for many centuries very few Jews living in the area, mostly just a tiny minority or orthodox ultra religious Jews. The vast majority of the inhabitants were Muslim Arabs. Most Jews were scattered all over the world, experiencing in varying degrees discrimination and persecution. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries this persecution tended to be at its worst in the Tsarist empire, taking the form of murderous pogroms. In this climate, and in the age of nationalism, Theodor Herzl formulated the ideology of Zionism, that the Jews should return to their ancient homeland of Palestine. This idea had some appeal to those suffering persecution and, aided by funds supplied by wealthier Jews in western nations, a steady trickle of mostly persecuted Jews began arriving in Palestine, buying up land fair and square from local Arabs.. Their numbers though were never great enough to trouble the Ottoman empire unduly. World War 1 wrought many changes, and the roots of the modern conflict lay in decisions made by the British out of expediency in their desire to win the war. They encouraged the Arabs to revolt against the Turks under the effective leadership of a charismatic British officer, the legendary Lawrence of Arabia. The Arabs were led to believe that they would be given control of the entire Arab area including Palestine, though in fact the British and French in the Sykes-Picot agreement planned to divide most of it up between themselves. But also in order to win the support of wealthy and politically influential Jews in the United States, Britain made the Balfour declaration promising the Jews a national home in Palestine. Thus both Arabs and Jews thought they'd been promised Palestine, though in fact it was the British themselves who took over. The vast majority of the local inhabitants were Muslim Arabs but a steady stream of Jews influenced by Zionism were coming in, often fleeing persecution, and buying land from the Arabs to form settlements of their own. Whilst some Arabs with land were happy to sell it to the Jews, many Muslim Arabs who lacked the land to profit from such transactions and thought Palestine ought to be theirs by right, grew increasingly hostile as Jewish migration into Palestine increased. There were riots and much intercommunal violence between Arab and Jew, the root cause generally being Arab hostility to Jewish migration into what they saw as their land. The Jews though could rightly claim that they had been promised a national home there by us, and those of a religious bent were inclined to view the area as the promised land gifted to them by God. Clearly Arabs and Jews in the area were already on a collision course. The British tried to restrict Jewish emigration into the area to dampen down Arab unrest, just at the time when the early stages of what would be the most terrible persecution and murder were taking off in Nazi Germany. World War 2 changed everything again. The Holocaust took place. Millions of innocent Jews were ruthlessly murdered in a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out. The clamour amongst survivors to get to Palestine became intense. Most of them no longer had any other home to return to, the communities they knew mostly having been destroyed. And the horror of the holocaust filled humanity with an intense sympathy for the Jews and their suffering, and their desire for a home of their own. The USA for one thing came down fully in support of the need for the Jews to have their own state where they could be safe. In the aftermath of the holocaust, public support for the Jews was immense, sympathy for the Arabs pushed aside. Britain initially still tried to stop mass Jewish migration into Palestine, but we were swimming against the tide and could no longer really afford the obligation. That Jewish extremists had also initiated a campaign of terrorism against the British didnt really help either. So we cut our losses and handed the territory over to the UN to resolve. As we left, the Jewish leaders declared the existence of the new state of Israel, with borders originally defined by UN-mandated partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas. Arab hostility to the Jews had already resulted in much fighting between Jew and Arab inside Palestine. When Israel came into existence and was recognised by the USA within minutes, the surrounding Arab Nations of Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt, immediately attacked it. Israel was fighting a desperate war for survival, aided by whatever arms they could obtain from abroad. There were many instances of Arabs being forcibly expelled from their villages because they were deemed to pose a strategic threat, and some notorious massacres committed by Israeli extremists like the Stern Gang, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre. These expulsions and massacres led to many Arabs fleeing in fear, and in the belief that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could return. This never happened of course and Israel never allowed them back in. Instead they and their descendants for many decades thereafter lived in so called refugee camps, nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years. As for the Arab invaders, the Jordanians succeeded in gaining control of what would later be known as the west bank, populated mostly by Arabs, and annexed it to their country. The Egyptians gained and took control of the Gaza strip. But that was about all. Elsewhere the Israelis expanded their state.. Israel has been subject to terrorist attacks from groups of disaffected Arabs, especially Palestinian ones, ever since. It was also threatened by its Arab neighbours, fighting them in 1956, 1967 and 1973. The first two of these were pre-emptive attacks, but the third - the Yom Kippur War of 1973 - was a surprise attack upon Israel itself by the Syrians and Egyptians. The 1967 War itself laid the groundwork for later difficulties. Because it resulted above all in the Israeli conquest of the West Bank, whose people have felt oppressed and occupied ever since. Israel since then appears to have lurched rightwards politically which has coloured some of their actions and responses. Yet in return for giving Sinai back to the Egyptians, they proved able to form a lasting peace with Egypt. In the west bank however there have been constant Israeli settler land thefts of ever more territory, illegal under international law but defended by the Israeli armed forces. The last Jewish leader to actively seek peace on the basis of a two state solution and cessation of all new settlement construction in the Arab lands was assassinated by extremists on his own side. Since then we have had the vicious feedback loop of constant Israeli intransigence and land thefts fuelling Arab terrorism, and Arab terrorism fuelling Israeli intransigence and diminishing ever further any desire to stop the settler land thefts. The main achievement of the latest Hamas terrorist attacks and Israeli responses to them appears to be the reinforcement of intransigence, hostility and hatred on both sides for each other. This probably means peace is unlikely anytime soon, unless outside powers were to pressure them into it. But the only ones capable of applying the necessary pressure on organisations like Hamas are the Iranians, whilst only the USA has enough clout to apply the necessary pressure on Israel. So the first prerequisite of peace in Gaza is probably some sort of meaningful dialogue between Iran and the USA.
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Post by Vinny on Oct 25, 2023 7:16:29 GMT
You haven't mentioned the pivotal and destabilising role of Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who sought to carry out genocide dragged the Palestinian people into a war and doomed them to a life of conflict.
That man was instrumental in starting the Pogroms of the late 20s, and in response, Menachem Begin, another piece of shit formed the terrorist organisation Irgun to fight back.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but these people believed in an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.
It's an ongoing cycle of killing with injustices carried out by both sides.
The Palestinians and Israelis need governments willing to coexist and cooperate.
Likud aren't going after Hamas, Hamas are either deep underground in bomb proof bunkers, or out of the way in Egypt and Qatar. They are imposing a collective punishment against the majority of Palestinians, and it doesn't work.
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Post by Orac on Oct 25, 2023 7:58:37 GMT
You haven't mentioned the pivotal and destabilising role of Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who sought to carry out genocide dragged the Palestinian people into a war and doomed them to a life of conflict. That man was instrumental in starting the Pogroms of the late 20s, and in response, Menachem Begin, another piece of shit formed the terrorist organisation Irgun to fight back. Two wrongs don't make a right, but these people believed in an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. It's an ongoing cycle of killing with injustices carried out by both sides. The Palestinians and Israelis need governments willing to coexist and cooperate. Likud aren't going after Hamas, Hamas are either deep underground in bomb proof bunkers, or out of the way in Egypt and Qatar. They are imposing a collective punishment against the majority of Palestinians, and it doesn't work.
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 8:35:09 GMT
Acknowledging faults on both sides is not playing the "blame game" or taking sides. False accusations like "Strawmanning" only allow you to continue to fool yourself, it is not debate. The media I watch is not influential upon me, I prefer actual research, not biased or public opinion. I have been debating the problem for over 20years. There has not been anything like the same level of condemnation of Hamas as there has been against Israel. It's good of you to at least acknowledge that you disagree with the Palestinian Muslim Arabs attempt to destroy Israel and to grab all of the Israeli land for themselves, and that it (there many attempts) was the wrong to do. I would just add that it heralded a bunch of unexpected consequences for the Arabs, i.e. it backfired. You asked 'Why the Jews chose Israel". The only one with a clear bias on this subject is yourself Exactly, over the last 50years, despite the repeated attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah? But I can understand that you condemn what the Right-Wing Israeli government that has inflicted no nonsense reprisals on the Arabs and have gone OTT at times. So in your mind all the aggression and violence that has led to this position doesn't count. If you do not understand that you have disclosed your absolute bias by that comment, then you have no place in this debate. Why not watch the video on the "Short trip through Jewish history" thread. It is a short trip. In The Mind Zone. I think you could do with a potted history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Yes there was a Jewish state - two in fact - in biblical times. But most of the Jews were dispersed all over the place by the Romans after some serious revolts against Roman rule. The Romans in Palestine were ultimately succeeded by the Byzantines, then the Arabs. Christian crusaders occupied parts of the area for a few centuries at the time of the crusades, but were eventually driven out. The Arabs were in turn driven out by the Ottoman Turks who ruled Palestine until the British kicked them out in 1917-18. Until the late 19th century, there had been for many centuries very few Jews living in the area, mostly just a tiny minority or orthodox ultra religious Jews. The vast majority of the inhabitants were Muslim Arabs. Most Jews were scattered all over the world, experiencing in varying degrees discrimination and persecution. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries this persecution tended to be at its worst in the Tsarist empire, taking the form of murderous pogroms. In this climate, and in the age of nationalism, Theodor Herzl formulated the ideology of Zionism, that the Jews should return to their ancient homeland of Palestine. This idea had some appeal to those suffering persecution and, aided by funds supplied by wealthier Jews in western nations, a steady trickle of mostly persecuted Jews began arriving in Palestine, buying up land fair and square from local Arabs.. Their numbers though were never great enough to trouble the Ottoman empire unduly. World War 1 wrought many changes, and the roots of the modern conflict lay in decisions made by the British out of expediency in their desire to win the war. They encouraged the Arabs to revolt against the Turks under the effective leadership of a charismatic British officer, the legendary Lawrence of Arabia. The Arabs were led to believe that they would be given control of the entire Arab area including Palestine, though in fact the British and French in the Sykes-Picot agreement planned to divide most of it up between themselves. But also in order to win the support of wealthy and politically influential Jews in the United States, Britain made the Balfour declaration promising the Jews a national home in Palestine. Thus both Arabs and Jews thought they'd been promised Palestine, though in fact it was the British themselves who took over. The vast majority of the local inhabitants were Muslim Arabs but a steady stream of Jews influenced by Zionism were coming in, often fleeing persecution, and buying land from the Arabs to form settlements of their own. Whilst some Arabs with land were happy to sell it to the Jews, many Muslim Arabs who lacked the land to profit from such transactions and thought Palestine ought to be theirs by right, grew increasingly hostile as Jewish migration into Palestine increased. There were riots and much intercommunal violence between Arab and Jew, the root cause generally being Arab hostility to Jewish migration into what they saw as their land. The Jews though could rightly claim that they had been promised a national home there by us, and those of a religious bent were inclined to view the area as the promised land gifted to them by God. Clearly Arabs and Jews in the area were already on a collision course. The British tried to restrict Jewish emigration into the area to dampen down Arab unrest, just at the time when the early stages of what would be the most terrible persecution and murder were taking off in Nazi Germany. World War 2 changed everything again. The Holocaust took place. Millions of innocent Jews were ruthlessly murdered in a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out. The clamour amongst survivors to get to Palestine became intense. Most of them no longer had any other home to return to, the communities they knew mostly having been destroyed. And the horror of the holocaust filled humanity with an intense sympathy for the Jews and their suffering, and their desire for a home of their own. The USA for one thing came down fully in support of the need for the Jews to have their own state where they could be safe. In the aftermath of the holocaust, public support for the Jews was immense, sympathy for the Arabs pushed aside. Britain initially still tried to stop mass Jewish migration into Palestine, but we were swimming against the tide and could no longer really afford the obligation. That Jewish extremists had also initiated a campaign of terrorism against the British didnt really help either. So we cut our losses and handed the territory over to the UN to resolve. As we left, the Jewish leaders declared the existence of the new state of Israel, with borders originally defined by UN-mandated partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas. Arab hostility to the Jews had already resulted in much fighting between Jew and Arab inside Palestine. When Israel came into existence and was recognised by the USA within minutes, the surrounding Arab Nations of Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt, immediately attacked it. Israel was fighting a desperate war for survival, aided by whatever arms they could obtain from abroad. There were many instances of Arabs being forcibly expelled from their villages because they were deemed to pose a strategic threat, and some notorious massacres committed by Israeli extremists like the Stern Gang, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre. These expulsions and massacres led to many Arabs fleeing in fear, and in the belief that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could return. This never happened of course and Israel never allowed them back in. Instead they and their descendants for many decades thereafter lived in so called refugee camps, nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years. As for the Arab invaders, the Jordanians succeeded in gaining control of what would later be known as the west bank, populated mostly by Arabs, and annexed it to their country. The Egyptians gained and took control of the Gaza strip. But that was about all. Elsewhere the Israelis expanded their state.. Israel has been subject to terrorist attacks from groups of disaffected Arabs, especially Palestinian ones, ever since. It was also threatened by its Arab neighbours, fighting them in 1956, 1967 and 1973. The first two of these were pre-emptive attacks, but the third - the Yom Kippur War of 1973 - was a surprise attack upon Israel itself by the Syrians and Egyptians. The 1967 War itself laid the groundwork for later difficulties. Because it resulted above all in the Israeli conquest of the West Bank, whose people have felt oppressed and occupied ever since. Israel since then appears to have lurched rightwards politically which has coloured some of their actions and responses. Yet in return for giving Sinai back to the Egyptians, they proved able to form a lasting peace with Egypt. In the west bank however there have been constant Israeli settler land thefts of ever more territory, illegal under international law but defended by the Israeli armed forces. The last Jewish leader to actively seek peace on the basis of a two state solution and cessation of all new settlement construction in the Arab lands was assassinated by extremists on his own side. Since then we have had the vicious feedback loop of constant Israeli intransigence and land thefts fuelling Arab terrorism, and Arab terrorism fuelling Israeli intransigence and diminishing ever further any desire to stop the settler land thefts. The main achievement of the latest Hamas terrorist attacks and Israeli responses to them appears to be the reinforcement of intransigence, hostility and hatred on both sides for each other. This probably means peace is unlikely anytime soon, unless outside powers were to pressure them into it. But the only ones capable of applying the necessary pressure on organisations like Hamas are the Iranians, whilst only the USA has enough clout to apply the necessary pressure on Israel. So the first prerequisite of peace in Gaza is probably some sort of meaningful dialogue between Iran and the USA. There is absolutely nothing new in your first comment, or your second comment, but I would point out that there were 14 Jewish townships, plus many Jewish Villages and communities in Palestine in the 1850s. Palestine was at that time a sickly, with a high level of malaria, sparsely populated and economically poor area. The Jews began by buying waste land for as they put "greening purposes" mostly the planting of trees. They were never a problem to the Ottoman Empire they were welcomed by the Ottomans and were helpful in building up the Ottoman economy, it was only when the Ottoman economy took a plunge that the Ottoman people, not their leaders, turned against the Jews. In 1858 the Ottomans abolished the position of the Dhimmi on the Jews. As a Dhimmi the Jews were second class citizens even in their own Townships and Villages. After the removal of the Dhimmi status, the Jews became equal under the law and free to buy Land and Property anywhere except in Mecca and Medina. This clearly pissed off the Palestinian Arabs who were used to Lording it over the Jews. If you are looking for the seeds of discontent and aggression by the Arabs against the Jews in Palestine, you don't need to look any further, but one more point is made later in my comment to your fourth point. Your third comment is IMO a confusion of facts and opinion. The roots of modern conflict were laid long before WW1. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control. They were promised that freedom if they helped destroy Ottoman control. They were never promised the control of Palestine. It seems to me that one problem was that there were Arab families with some expectation of taking control of areas released from the Ottomans, but none that claimed control of Palestine. Palestine itself was not even recognised as a country until IIRC 1971. My comment on your fourth point is. That during the British Mandate the British introduced an Immunisation program, they improved the docks improving the economy of the area and with the help of the Jews they filled in many of the Large swamps that were the breeding grounds for mosquitoes thus massively reducing the incidences of Malaria. They turned a sparsely populated sickly, economically weak undesirable area into a honey pot that saw tens of thousands of Muslims enter the area with no problems from the Palestinian Arabs, but when tens of thousands of Jews arrived there was instant conflict and aggression from the Muslim Arabs. IMO that is the problem in a nut shell, the main argument from the Muslim Arabs was that the Jews were not Muslims. Religious arrogance was the problem. I might pick up the rest of your post later.
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 8:42:00 GMT
I have not read most of this thread so you may or may not have posted the truth in it, I cannot say. But more generally speaking, you do not only post the truth. You post your opinion, which you mistake for the truth, and thereby assume that everyone with a differing opinion is not speaking the truth, or as you generally prefer to put it, are showing their bias. Certainly here and there you have on occasions spouted utter tosh which is anything but the truth. I suppose we can all be guilty of that occasionally. You however have always been too arrogant in the assumed undeniable truth of your own opinions to ever admit to any bias or possibility of ever being wrong. I would remind you that you are posting in the Mind Zone, lying accusations of another poster are not welcome.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 10:00:17 GMT
You haven't mentioned the pivotal and destabilising role of Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who sought to carry out genocide dragged the Palestinian people into a war and doomed them to a life of conflict. That man was instrumental in starting the Pogroms of the late 20s, and in response, Menachem Begin, another piece of shit formed the terrorist organisation Irgun to fight back. Two wrongs don't make a right, but these people believed in an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. It's an ongoing cycle of killing with injustices carried out by both sides. The Palestinians and Israelis need governments willing to coexist and cooperate. Likud aren't going after Hamas, Hamas are either deep underground in bomb proof bunkers, or out of the way in Egypt and Qatar. They are imposing a collective punishment against the majority of Palestinians, and it doesn't work. The guy he's talking about probably has muliple lefty accounts on this forum. Either that or they're reading from the same script.
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 10:14:24 GMT
The guy he's talking about probably has muliple lefty accounts on this forum. Either that or they're reading from the same script. Only in the minds of Righties?
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 11:17:45 GMT
When Israel came into existence and was recognised by the USA within minutes, the surrounding Arab Nations of Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt, immediately attacked it. Israel was fighting a desperate war for survival, aided by whatever arms they could obtain from abroad. There were many instances of Arabs being forcibly expelled from their villages because they were deemed to pose a strategic threat, and some notorious massacres committed by Israeli extremists like the Stern Gang, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre. These expulsions and massacres led to many Arabs fleeing in fear, and in the belief that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could return. This never happened of course and Israel never allowed them back in. Instead they and their descendants for many decades thereafter lived in so called refugee camps, nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years. As for the Arab invaders, the Jordanians succeeded in gaining control of what would later be known as the west bank, populated mostly by Arabs, and annexed it to their country. The Egyptians gained and took control of the Gaza strip. But that was about all. Elsewhere the Israelis expanded their state. This probably means peace is unlikely anytime soon, unless outside powers were to pressure them into it. But the only ones capable of applying the necessary pressure on organisations like Hamas are the Iranians, whilst only the USA has enough clout to apply the necessary pressure on Israel. So the first prerequisite of peace in Gaza is probably some sort of meaningful dialogue between Iran and the USA. "within minutes the surrounding Arab nations attacked". Just as they said they would when the backed up the 1947 threat by the Palestinian Arabs to destroy an Israeli state if one appeared. "The Deir Yassin Massacre". Beginning in February 1948, Arab militias under Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni blockaded the corridor from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, preventing essential supplies from reaching the Jewish population. This blockade was broken in mid-April of that year by Jewish militias who carried out Operation Nachshon and Operation Maccabi. "fleeing in fear" The Arabs were advised by the Arab armies to move out, promising them being able to return as soon as they had annihilated Israel. IMO it was obvious that civilians caught between two fighting armies were in the wrong place at the wrong time, so commonsense was the main reason for the Arabs "fleeing". "nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years". Yes, nursing a sense (of self inflicted) grievance which fuel the already existing terrorism in future years. (meanwhile the Israelis should just accept that the previous desire that they should be annihilated, should just be accepted and should continue unabated?) I don't think there is such a thing as "reasonable dialogue" with Hamas, and Iran as far as I'm aware has been funding proxy wars against America for many years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 21:31:24 GMT
When Israel came into existence and was recognised by the USA within minutes, the surrounding Arab Nations of Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt, immediately attacked it. Israel was fighting a desperate war for survival, aided by whatever arms they could obtain from abroad. There were many instances of Arabs being forcibly expelled from their villages because they were deemed to pose a strategic threat, and some notorious massacres committed by Israeli extremists like the Stern Gang, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre. These expulsions and massacres led to many Arabs fleeing in fear, and in the belief that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could return. This never happened of course and Israel never allowed them back in. Instead they and their descendants for many decades thereafter lived in so called refugee camps, nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years. As for the Arab invaders, the Jordanians succeeded in gaining control of what would later be known as the west bank, populated mostly by Arabs, and annexed it to their country. The Egyptians gained and took control of the Gaza strip. But that was about all. Elsewhere the Israelis expanded their state. This probably means peace is unlikely anytime soon, unless outside powers were to pressure them into it. But the only ones capable of applying the necessary pressure on organisations like Hamas are the Iranians, whilst only the USA has enough clout to apply the necessary pressure on Israel. So the first prerequisite of peace in Gaza is probably some sort of meaningful dialogue between Iran and the USA. "within minutes the surrounding Arab nations attacked". Just as they said they would when the backed up the 1947 threat by the Palestinian Arabs to destroy an Israeli state if one appeared. "The Deir Yassin Massacre". Beginning in February 1948, Arab militias under Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni blockaded the corridor from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, preventing essential supplies from reaching the Jewish population. This blockade was broken in mid-April of that year by Jewish militias who carried out Operation Nachshon and Operation Maccabi. "fleeing in fear" The Arabs were advised by the Arab armies to move out, promising them being able to return as soon as they had annihilated Israel. IMO it was obvious that civilians caught between two fighting armies were in the wrong place at the wrong time, so commonsense was the main reason for the Arabs "fleeing". "nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years". Yes, nursing a sense (of self inflicted) grievance which fuel the already existing terrorism in future years. (meanwhile the Israelis should just accept that the previous desire that they should be annihilated, should just be accepted and should continue unabated?) I don't think there is such a thing as "reasonable dialogue" with Hamas, and Iran as far as I'm aware has been funding proxy wars against America for many years. You have made the claim that you always speak the truth whilst blatantly trying to pretend here that the Deir Yassin massacre never took place. You need to learn to differentiate facts from what you choose to believe if you want to establish a cast iron reputation for speaking the truth. Read up on some facts here for a start.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacreAnd blockading an enemy held city in an attempt to force its surrender is a legitimate act of war. Massacring civilians who posed no threat, including women and children is not justified by the former, which you seem to be trying to imply it was. No wonder genuine left wingers dont believe your lot in Labour are capable of being even-handed, when you think one side trying to cut off a city in a military operation justifies the other side indulging in a massacre of civilians. You are not engaged here in the putting forward of any truth, but in an attempt to establish false narratives to try and justify a massacre committed by forces of your own chosen side. And do note the obvious fact that it was mostly the Arabs who fled and not the Jews, which itself ought to tell you something. But of course it wont. Your laughably biased contribution alone demonstrates that.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 25, 2023 21:55:08 GMT
And do note the obvious fact that it was mostly the Arabs who fled and not the Jews, which itself ought to tell you something. Where would you have expected the Jews to flee to?..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 21:59:40 GMT
I think you could do with a potted history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Yes there was a Jewish state - two in fact - in biblical times. But most of the Jews were dispersed all over the place by the Romans after some serious revolts against Roman rule. The Romans in Palestine were ultimately succeeded by the Byzantines, then the Arabs. Christian crusaders occupied parts of the area for a few centuries at the time of the crusades, but were eventually driven out. The Arabs were in turn driven out by the Ottoman Turks who ruled Palestine until the British kicked them out in 1917-18. Until the late 19th century, there had been for many centuries very few Jews living in the area, mostly just a tiny minority or orthodox ultra religious Jews. The vast majority of the inhabitants were Muslim Arabs. Most Jews were scattered all over the world, experiencing in varying degrees discrimination and persecution. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries this persecution tended to be at its worst in the Tsarist empire, taking the form of murderous pogroms. In this climate, and in the age of nationalism, Theodor Herzl formulated the ideology of Zionism, that the Jews should return to their ancient homeland of Palestine. This idea had some appeal to those suffering persecution and, aided by funds supplied by wealthier Jews in western nations, a steady trickle of mostly persecuted Jews began arriving in Palestine, buying up land fair and square from local Arabs.. Their numbers though were never great enough to trouble the Ottoman empire unduly. World War 1 wrought many changes, and the roots of the modern conflict lay in decisions made by the British out of expediency in their desire to win the war. They encouraged the Arabs to revolt against the Turks under the effective leadership of a charismatic British officer, the legendary Lawrence of Arabia. The Arabs were led to believe that they would be given control of the entire Arab area including Palestine, though in fact the British and French in the Sykes-Picot agreement planned to divide most of it up between themselves. But also in order to win the support of wealthy and politically influential Jews in the United States, Britain made the Balfour declaration promising the Jews a national home in Palestine. Thus both Arabs and Jews thought they'd been promised Palestine, though in fact it was the British themselves who took over. The vast majority of the local inhabitants were Muslim Arabs but a steady stream of Jews influenced by Zionism were coming in, often fleeing persecution, and buying land from the Arabs to form settlements of their own. Whilst some Arabs with land were happy to sell it to the Jews, many Muslim Arabs who lacked the land to profit from such transactions and thought Palestine ought to be theirs by right, grew increasingly hostile as Jewish migration into Palestine increased. There were riots and much intercommunal violence between Arab and Jew, the root cause generally being Arab hostility to Jewish migration into what they saw as their land. The Jews though could rightly claim that they had been promised a national home there by us, and those of a religious bent were inclined to view the area as the promised land gifted to them by God. Clearly Arabs and Jews in the area were already on a collision course. The British tried to restrict Jewish emigration into the area to dampen down Arab unrest, just at the time when the early stages of what would be the most terrible persecution and murder were taking off in Nazi Germany. World War 2 changed everything again. The Holocaust took place. Millions of innocent Jews were ruthlessly murdered in a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out. The clamour amongst survivors to get to Palestine became intense. Most of them no longer had any other home to return to, the communities they knew mostly having been destroyed. And the horror of the holocaust filled humanity with an intense sympathy for the Jews and their suffering, and their desire for a home of their own. The USA for one thing came down fully in support of the need for the Jews to have their own state where they could be safe. In the aftermath of the holocaust, public support for the Jews was immense, sympathy for the Arabs pushed aside. Britain initially still tried to stop mass Jewish migration into Palestine, but we were swimming against the tide and could no longer really afford the obligation. That Jewish extremists had also initiated a campaign of terrorism against the British didnt really help either. So we cut our losses and handed the territory over to the UN to resolve. As we left, the Jewish leaders declared the existence of the new state of Israel, with borders originally defined by UN-mandated partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas. Arab hostility to the Jews had already resulted in much fighting between Jew and Arab inside Palestine. When Israel came into existence and was recognised by the USA within minutes, the surrounding Arab Nations of Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, and Egypt, immediately attacked it. Israel was fighting a desperate war for survival, aided by whatever arms they could obtain from abroad. There were many instances of Arabs being forcibly expelled from their villages because they were deemed to pose a strategic threat, and some notorious massacres committed by Israeli extremists like the Stern Gang, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre. These expulsions and massacres led to many Arabs fleeing in fear, and in the belief that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could return. This never happened of course and Israel never allowed them back in. Instead they and their descendants for many decades thereafter lived in so called refugee camps, nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years. As for the Arab invaders, the Jordanians succeeded in gaining control of what would later be known as the west bank, populated mostly by Arabs, and annexed it to their country. The Egyptians gained and took control of the Gaza strip. But that was about all. Elsewhere the Israelis expanded their state.. Israel has been subject to terrorist attacks from groups of disaffected Arabs, especially Palestinian ones, ever since. It was also threatened by its Arab neighbours, fighting them in 1956, 1967 and 1973. The first two of these were pre-emptive attacks, but the third - the Yom Kippur War of 1973 - was a surprise attack upon Israel itself by the Syrians and Egyptians. The 1967 War itself laid the groundwork for later difficulties. Because it resulted above all in the Israeli conquest of the West Bank, whose people have felt oppressed and occupied ever since. Israel since then appears to have lurched rightwards politically which has coloured some of their actions and responses. Yet in return for giving Sinai back to the Egyptians, they proved able to form a lasting peace with Egypt. In the west bank however there have been constant Israeli settler land thefts of ever more territory, illegal under international law but defended by the Israeli armed forces. The last Jewish leader to actively seek peace on the basis of a two state solution and cessation of all new settlement construction in the Arab lands was assassinated by extremists on his own side. Since then we have had the vicious feedback loop of constant Israeli intransigence and land thefts fuelling Arab terrorism, and Arab terrorism fuelling Israeli intransigence and diminishing ever further any desire to stop the settler land thefts. The main achievement of the latest Hamas terrorist attacks and Israeli responses to them appears to be the reinforcement of intransigence, hostility and hatred on both sides for each other. This probably means peace is unlikely anytime soon, unless outside powers were to pressure them into it. But the only ones capable of applying the necessary pressure on organisations like Hamas are the Iranians, whilst only the USA has enough clout to apply the necessary pressure on Israel. So the first prerequisite of peace in Gaza is probably some sort of meaningful dialogue between Iran and the USA. There is absolutely nothing new in your first comment, or your second comment, but I would point out that there were 14 Jewish townships, plus many Jewish Villages and communities in Palestine in the 1850s. Palestine was at that time a sickly, with a high level of malaria, sparsely populated and economically poor area. The Jews began by buying waste land for as they put "greening purposes" mostly the planting of trees. They were never a problem to the Ottoman Empire they were welcomed by the Ottomans and were helpful in building up the Ottoman economy, it was only when the Ottoman economy took a plunge that the Ottoman people, not their leaders, turned against the Jews. In 1858 the Ottomans abolished the position of the Dhimmi on the Jews. As a Dhimmi the Jews were second class citizens even in their own Townships and Villages. After the removal of the Dhimmi status, the Jews became equal under the law and free to buy Land and Property anywhere except in Mecca and Medina. This clearly pissed off the Palestinian Arabs who were used to Lording it over the Jews. If you are looking for the seeds of discontent and aggression by the Arabs against the Jews in Palestine, you don't need to look any further, but one more point is made later in my comment to your fourth point. Your third comment is IMO a confusion of facts and opinion. The roots of modern conflict were laid long before WW1. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control. They were promised that freedom if they helped destroy Ottoman control. They were never promised the control of Palestine. It seems to me that one problem was that there were Arab families with some expectation of taking control of areas released from the Ottomans, but none that claimed control of Palestine. Palestine itself was not even recognised as a country until IIRC 1971. My comment on your fourth point is. That during the British Mandate the British introduced an Immunisation program, they improved the docks improving the economy of the area and with the help of the Jews they filled in many of the Large swamps that were the breeding grounds for mosquitoes thus massively reducing the incidences of Malaria. They turned a sparsely populated sickly, economically weak undesirable area into a honey pot that saw tens of thousands of Muslims enter the area with no problems from the Palestinian Arabs, but when tens of thousands of Jews arrived there was instant conflict and aggression from the Muslim Arabs. IMO that is the problem in a nut shell, the main argument from the Muslim Arabs was that the Jews were not Muslims. Religious arrogance was the problem. I might pick up the rest of your post later. In actual fact there were 300,000 mostly Arab Muslims in Palestine in 1850-51, and a further 27,000 mostly Arab Christians. There were only 13,000 Jews. That is about 4% of the total population at the time. A tiny minority as I said. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 22:04:47 GMT
And do note the obvious fact that it was mostly the Arabs who fled and not the Jews, which itself ought to tell you something. Where would you have expected the Jews to flee to?.. Generally people fleeing danger will go to anywhere they regard as safer. In the 1948-49 war it was mostly Jews driving Arabs out of the areas they controlled, with the aid of the odd massacre here and there. Of course, had the Arabs succeeded in overrunning Israel there would likely have been Arab massacres of Jews resulting in many fleeing abroad. But the likelihood of the Arabs doing to Jews what Jews did to Arabs at Deir Yassin had they got the chance in no way justifies Deir Yassin.
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 22:13:37 GMT
"within minutes the surrounding Arab nations attacked". Just as they said they would when the backed up the 1947 threat by the Palestinian Arabs to destroy an Israeli state if one appeared. "The Deir Yassin Massacre". Beginning in February 1948, Arab militias under Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni blockaded the corridor from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, preventing essential supplies from reaching the Jewish population. This blockade was broken in mid-April of that year by Jewish militias who carried out Operation Nachshon and Operation Maccabi. "fleeing in fear" The Arabs were advised by the Arab armies to move out, promising them being able to return as soon as they had annihilated Israel. IMO it was obvious that civilians caught between two fighting armies were in the wrong place at the wrong time, so commonsense was the main reason for the Arabs "fleeing". "nursing a sense of grievance which was to fuel terrorism in future years". Yes, nursing a sense (of self inflicted) grievance which fuel the already existing terrorism in future years. (meanwhile the Israelis should just accept that the previous desire that they should be annihilated, should just be accepted and should continue unabated?) I don't think there is such a thing as "reasonable dialogue" with Hamas, and Iran as far as I'm aware has been funding proxy wars against America for many years. You have made the claim that you always speak the truth whilst blatantly trying to pretend here that the Deir Yassin massacre never took place.And do note the obvious fact that it was mostly the Arabs who fled and not the Jews, which itself ought to tell you something. But of course it wont. Your laughably biased contribution alone demonstrates that. Stop telling lies about me, I made no such pretense. I pointed out that what happened was not just on a whim of the Israelis. It was in fact a house to house battle. It was 1948, there were 5 Muslim armies waiting to annihilate Israel, so as far as the Israelis were concerned a clear path for them to supply Israelis on the other side of the blockade was a necessity. Come back when you have decided to indulge in proper debate.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 25, 2023 22:13:44 GMT
Where would you have expected the Jews to flee to?.. Generally people fleeing danger will go to anywhere they regard as safer. In the 1948-49 war it was mostly Jews driving Arabs out of the areas they controlled, with the aid of the odd massacre here and there. Of course, had the Arabs succeeded in overrunning Israel there would likely have been Arab massacres of Jews resulting in many fleeing abroad. But the likelihood of the Arabs doing to Jews what Jews did to Arabs at Deir Yassin had they got the chance in no way justifies Deir Yassin. Well at the time Jews were being expelled from neighboring Arab countries - so there was effectively nowhere they could flee to in the region. What you are also avoiding is that it was the invading Arab armies who told the Palestinians to flee.
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2023 22:28:09 GMT
I might pick up the rest of your post later. In actual fact there were 300,000 mostly Arab Muslims in Palestine in 1850-51, and a further 27,000 mostly Arab Christians. There were only 13,000 Jews. That is about 4% of the total population at the time. A tiny minority as I said. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)So what? There were still Palestinian Jewish families in Palestine, families that had lived there long before Islam even existed. And it was still a sparsely populated area. How many Jews had gone to other countries in order to escape being treated as second class citizens (the Dhimmi) in their own country which had been turned into an apartheid system created by the Arabs? How many had left because of the occasional Pogrom on Jewish communities by the Arabs?
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